Mr. Jonathan Powell:

It is good to see Ms Gildernew again. It brings back memories. Inclusion was absolutely crucial. The Sunningdale Agreement did not work because of lack of inclusion. The Anglo-Irish Agreement did not work for the same reason. The fundamental change we made was to have inclusive talks. John Major always tried to move to that but was not able to do so. As I work on negotiations around the world, that is perhaps the single most important lesson I take away from Northern Ireland. If one tries to have a process that is not inclusive of those people who have political support, one is unlikely to solve the problem, because, in the end, there is usually a political problem at the root, whether it is in Colombia or anywhere else, such as the Basque country. Inclusion was fundamental.

John Major found himself in a difficult position of trying to bring Sinn Féin in. That delay made people give up hope and tragically pushed us back into violence again. That is why Tony Blair took a risk by moving as fast as he conceivably could to bring Sinn Féin in under the Mitchell Principles. That was the key to success. That did not suddenly make things easy, which is never the way in Northern Ireland. The unionists would not even talk to Sinn Féin during the talks, even in the gents' toilets, which led to all the jokes about it. It went on for a long time. Even when it came to negotiations with the DUP, it would not meet directly, or at least not publicly, with Sinn Féin and there had to be much shuttling backwards and forwards. The lesson about inclusion is important not only for Northern Ireland but for everywhere else in the world too. I hope people learn it.

Some people say that there is no problem and ask why people are making a fuss. I do not think that is right. Clearly, if there is a border in the Irish Sea, that is a problem for their identity. There is a border between them and the rest of the United Kingdom. Pretending that is not a problem will make things worse rather than better. The difficulty is, as Ms Gildernew says, that Brexit, the Good Friday Agreement and the status of Northern Ireland were always insoluble. I spent much time pointing it out during the referendum and subsequent to it. There has to be a border somewhere. We spent six years trying to think of an alternative and no one has come up with one. There has to be a border in the Irish Sea because it cannot be on the island of Ireland. Even the unionists are not proposing that it should be on the island of Ireland because they know how dangerous that would be. They are just saying that we should not have a border, which is nonsense, because there has to be a border. The question is whether we can settle this by removing the practical problems, which the protocol attempts to do.

I think the EU has to be as flexible as possible. I can see that it has been flexible but it has to be more flexible on matters such as a green lane, which I think it can do within the terms of its mandate. If I was the EU, I would not do so now, because it will get nothing back from the negotiation. If it can get to a serious negotiation, it has a chance of resolving the issue.

I would say to loyalists that they have been exploited and used by other politicians throughout their history. They should really be standing up for and talking about their very deprived communities. They are right. That should be done politically. They should not let some of their people slip back into threats of violence. Ignoring the loyalists is a terrible mistake. It may be a small group of people, but it has a significant interest. We have to find a way to engage. Irish politicians have been much better at engaging with loyalists than any British politicians. I think British politicians should try harder at that.