Mr. Jonathan Powell:

I thank the Deputy. I think I would distinguish between the DUP and the British Government in all of this. The DUP is not the first or the only party to bring down the institutions since the Good Friday Agreement. They have been brought down a number of times by different parties for different reasons. I think it is tragic that they have brought them down. It is incredibly important to get them up again as fast as possible. Most people who have worked on the issue of Northern Ireland in Britain agree that is something that must be done.

I have noticed the British Government has different demands from the DUP. As I understand it, the DUP position is that it wants the Sainsbury's test to be met, that is, fairly practical issues to be addressed, and they are not so bothered about the European Court of Justice and ideological issues which the British Government has raised and which have very little to do with people in Northern Ireland. The danger and difficulty here is that this has all been played into Conservative Party politics, which is not in the best interests of Northern Ireland. Personally, I think it is important the DUP and all the parties in Northern Ireland are in dialogue with the EU about this. The EU should really be taking into account the interests of all of the parties in Northern Ireland about how the protocol works, its advantages, which many businesses fear will be threatened by what is happening, as well as the DUP's concerns, which are largely to do with identity but also the Sainsbury's test. I would distinguish between the DUP and the British Government on this.

I know it sounds rather hopeless to say we should wait for a new Prime Minister, but since I am hoping and believing that is going to happen quite soon, what I would be doing if I was in the Irish Government is preparing for negotiations post-Boris Johnson. If he stays, we are going to have a real problem. I just do not see how an EU negotiator can trust the Government that has done these things against the law. It is just really difficult to see how they can. For the Irish Government, too, it is extremely complicated. I am afraid I do not have a magic answer as to what we can do as long as Boris Johnson stays in power, apart from pray, which is not necessarily a political solution.

On the border poll and what the requirements were, it is a long time ago and I cannot claim to have a very good memory of this but I do not think the actual terms were ever discussed in much detail. I do not believe there is some secret drawer in the British Government where it is written down on paper what the Secretary of State will have to see before he calls a border poll. I do not think that exists. I do not know. I cannot be sure. I have been out of government since 2007. Certainly in 2007 there was not some drawer one would open in case of a census showing a majority or plurality of nationalists rather than unionists. I do think the Deputy is right is saying that preparing is important. What worries me most of all, in a way, combined with the mayhem caused by Brexit, is the sort of oath of omertathat everyone seems to have taken on the issue of what unification would mean.

The trouble with Brexit was that we saw it as being something very soft, like the situation with Norway, but it turned out to be something completely different. If one wants the more than 1 million people in Northern Ireland not to be scared about what a united Ireland might be like, there needs to be a discussion about how minority rights can be protected and the role of Stormont. I understand why the Irish and British Governments do not want to talk about it. In the end, that is a mistake. When one does not talk about things, they become scarier. I do not think a majority for a border poll is imminent, but refusing to talk about the issue is almost certainly a mistake.