Ms Joan Carthy:

It is a bit of both. There is that issue of creep, as the Chairman called it. When restaurants and pubs are allowed to put out tables and chairs, they do so within that minimum space they are given, which is wrong to start with. We have to take into account the space that will be needed for someone to sit at a table once all the chairs are pulled out and so on. That is the space that should be defined in the standards, not just how much space a table and chairs take up with nobody sitting there. A bit of both is going on. As I said earlier, in many cases, our streets are just too small, so the authorities are looking at pedestrianising some spaces, which is a great idea in theory but it has to be done right, with, as we said previously, meaningful consultation with people with disabilities. The areas being designated for outdoor dining have to be accessible for a person not only as a pedestrian but also as a consumer, and that is not happening. Just because we say there is outdoor dining, people assume it is going to be accessible but it is absolutely not in many cases. As many chairs as possible are put into small spaces, which means a wheelchair user or somebody with a mobility aid cannot make his or her way around them, or somebody with a visual impairment will fall over them in the street.