Professor Denis Cusack:

The local authorities value for money report came out only a few years ago and it looked at this in great detail and costed the whole service, so that information is there. The last time it was costed, it was somewhere in the region of €8 million but that was nearly 20 years ago.

The Deputy says it is within the remit of the local authority. The local authorities actually have little or no role other than the formal appointment of the coroner and the payment of fees for pathologists and witnesses. Other than that, it is left up to the coroner. There is a commonality. I would not agree with everything that has been said and I think there are some misunderstandings on the role of the coroner. The coroner service is not like the Courts Service. The coroner service is the body of coroners. It is not a section of the Department of Justice. That is why I think it is the coroners who have been driving this reform.

On reviewing for this, I had to refresh my memory. I actually chaired the sub-committee on the services of that reform. Of the 107 recommendations, many of them that have since been put forward as being new or innovative were actually put into that report in 2000. Senator McDowell brought forward the 2007 Bill. If we look at Part 2 and Part 3 of that Bill, many of the answers to what we need are there and we do not need to reinvent the wheel.

I stress that we are very tied up with inquests. Coroners issue interim certificates, cremation certificates, out-of-state certificates, insurance reports, follow-up for families, documents, research with the Health Research Board and coroner's certificates. From 2019 to 2021, which goes back to pre-Covid days, out of 17,822, only 12% of the death investigations proceeded to inquest and 20%, or one in five, to post mortem. The vast majority of the coroner's work is actually done in the office in investigating the death and helping the families, for example, in getting a death certificate to get a will, to get probate or to get insurance. We have co-operated, helped and advised. I would advise the committee not to get too bogged down with the inquests. Inquests are extraordinarily important and medical inquests are extraordinarily important, and every death must be inquired into but let us not forget the majority of death investigations are not medical inquests and they are not contested inquests; they are post mortem examinations and follow-up with families.

I am going to address the issue raised by Mr. Smyrl, with whom I had enormous correspondence when I was president of the council of coroners from 2008 to 2010. We do not disagree on the aims but the coroner service is not a civil registration service and it is not a genealogical service. I will tell the committee why later on, if the members wish. Because of the complexities of family life in Ireland today, the best people to help with civil registration and genealogy are the family. They know their deceased one, they know the family, they know the origins. Appendix L of the 2000 report set that out in the year 2000. We have a commonality but it is how we get there. I would agree that many of our recommendations are very similar. It is just how we get there in order to have a more global view.

All of the time, I want to come back to the point that it is a legal formality, it is a legal system, but there is a compassionate sensitivity to the bereaved and to the dignity and respect of the deceased. If I could sum it up in one word again, it is the humanity of the coroner service and what the coroners are doing within the legal framework but, sometimes, we lose sight of that with legal frameworks. Much of what is in the report about support services, bereavement and counselling is not within the remit of the coroners. Many of the reforms and many of the faults that we might say of people dealing with the justice system could be said for the High Court, the Circuit Court, the Supreme Court, the District Court and tribunals. We need to focus on a wider approach of supporting families. That should not simply be in saying how we support by counselling and support in the courtroom and in the courthouse for the coroner's court, and I think we should be looking at the entire criminal justice system. The report from the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission was only published on 6 May, and the coroners had an input into that in terms of looking at it with the officials. We have a lot of the answers together and maybe it is just a difference of emphasis.

I want to assure the committee on behalf of the coroner service - my very good colleague, Dr. Cullinane, is here in the Gallery - that we are striving to continue the reforms and we have been pushing the door for reforms. We, above all people, have the greatest perspective in our privilege in being able to serve our citizens. We need to drive reform and I think we are very united in that. I think of the families. I have sent the committee recommendations from last month. I think we are very much at one, if we can work together.