Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 25 May 2022

Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Union Affairs

Russia's Invasion of Ukraine: Engagement with Ukrainian Ambassador and the Chair of the EU Committee of the Ukrainian Parliament

Ms Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze:

There were quite a lot of questions. I will start from the very last one. Ukrainian people are watching attentively. It is welcome when embassies in Ukraine are reopened. The assessment by Irish security, intelligence and partners would be important for Irish diplomatic staff, but maybe that could be assessed and then decided on in co-ordination with other nations. We have been happy to see Americans, Canadians, the EU mission and many other missions reopen in Ukraine, even though they are understaffed and working in a limited capacity. That means a lot. None of them have brought back consular departments but they are focusing their activities on political and defence personnel.

Regarding how we are dealing with refugees, I stayed in Kyiv. Many of my friends left. Some went abroad and some went to the western part of Ukraine. I see many people coming back now. On a personal level, I understand that being there is still insecure. There are a number of reasons for it. For example, people do not have resources to pay additional rent in other parts of Ukraine. They still have their homes, so they do not need to stay in the facilities, which provide a safe place for internally displaced people from other regions of Ukraine. That means that many places in the western parts of Ukraine are being vacated but not for long, because unfortunately new people are coming in from internally. We have used schools and public municipal buildings for these centres to help internally displaced people to stay. Many are staying in other Ukrainians' homes. I cannot say that we are expanding the capacity for internally displaced people or helping them on the territory of Ukraine, but the number is not decreasing at all. Almost 9 million people are internally displaced and they are staying with family, friends or total strangers, or in public buildings prepared by local authorities to welcome internally displaced people.

I do not think direct negotiations on grain between Russia and Ukraine are possible. We would not engage in direct communication because that would be totally wrong, as it would be used by Russia as more leverage on us. That is why we believe this is the responsibility of many international organisations and nations. There is no direct negotiation between Russia and Ukraine on that issue.

The Deputy is right that our capacity to deal with investigations is far from being enough. That is why we have asked different countries that are able to send forensic experts and special prosecutors to Ukraine to help us to deal with this need to document and do it in accordance with the standards that will be needed for the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice. If Ireland is able to provide any additional capacity in that respect, the office of the prosecutor general would welcome those efforts. A serious team from France and from some other countries has worked with us but it will not be enough. More atrocities and additional crimes are being revealed in newly liberated territories. We hear terrible stories from near Kharkiv from people who have gone through that occupation.

These are people we would know, not some stranger or an official. It is hard to imagine what was happening in these territories. One would think we had seen it all after Bucha but that is far from the truth.

With regard to the statement by Kissinger, I am very grateful to the Deputy for putting so eloquently that Kissinger made a disgraceful comment. I am happy that here and across the meetings we are having both online and offline with our counterparts, there are few who would dare to put it that way but there are some. Also, there are some countries that may not express this directly but are hinting, under the pretext of saving the lives of Ukrainians, that Ukraine should make some concessions and basically agree to the loss of some of the territories. These countries do not understand that these are exactly the concessions that were made before and that in 2014, Ukraine listened to its partners. We were weak at the point - our chain of command was ruined after the former president of the Caucasus fled the country and so on - and it was extremely difficult. We were asked by our partners not to shoot back, resist or fight back. That was a huge mistake. Let us be clear. We have not been protected by the fig leaf of the Budapest memorandum, a sheet of paper that did not provide assurances, not to mention guarantees after we had given up the third biggest arsenal of nuclear weapons in the world. Therefore, we have learned our lesson from those suggestions in 2014 and we are not going to make the same mistake on our side again.

President Zelenskyy addressed the whole forum here in Davos online and this morning he spoke on the broadcast of the Ukrainian breakfast at Davos. He made pretty clear that Ukrainians do not agree to concessions but we definitely understand that at some point there will be discussions on a peace agreement and that wars are finished by peace talks. However, he said he would prefer Ukraine, on one side, with international partners that have been critical in helping us to go through this dire challenge, if one can call the war just a challenge, and, on the other side, some representative of Russia who can take a decision. I do not think we are considering on any level at this particular moment any real negotiations that would envisage anything but an exchange of prisoners of war and hostages and the establishment of humanitarian corridors between the occupied and non-occupied territories, while there is a ceasefire and a potential withdrawal of Russian troops. These are the only logical topics for talks to take place at this moment. We are not talking about the possibility of Ukraine giving up any part of our land.

Let us suggest, for example, that France gives Nice to Russia or that Germany gives Bavaria to Russia. That would be totally wrong. People must understand that concessions only indulge an additional appetite for Putin, the Russian regime and the Russian Federation. That will be seen and used as a weakness, which will lead to additional attacks and additional destruction in the future. That is why it is a no-go for us. As Golda Meir, the former President of Israel, once said, there is little room for compromise between those who have come to kill you and your desire to live and survive. That is where we are right now. We understand that the situation is existential for us.

With regard to naming the countries that are still sceptical, the Deputy is right that it is about our EU candidacy status. They are France, Germany, the Netherlands unfortunately, Belgium, and Austria to some extent, and Cyprus. We are looking around and trying to understand in which direction to go or lean. There are quite a few countries with which to work and that is why the parliamentary connections of members of the committee are very important in that regard.

I do not know if any members are involved in the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. That is another assembly that will take place. Perhaps members could work with delegations of other countries directly or offline. That would also be helpful at this point. I apologise. Members can disregard that statement. However, notwithstanding that Ireland is not a member of NATO, it is represented on other parliamentary assemblies. Ukraine participates in the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, although we are not a member.

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