Mr. Tony Silcock:

I think the Deputy asked a question about outcomes. There are hard and soft outcomes. I will not say which are better. Our hard outcome is 837 people who went through the programme over a four-year period and £4 million was spent so that is €4,700 per person, which is incredible. The other soft outcomes are around self-confidence, self-esteem, the ability to even to hold conversations and understanding difference and diversity. Regarding Senator Ó Donnghaile's question about role models or examples, we have young people in west Belfast who have never been in east Belfast. That is shocking. It is seven miles away. We have mums and dads who have never been in the city centre so if we want a measurable outcome, it is a young person going across to alternatives or wherever else we are going in east Belfast and meeting and greeting people. It is not only about meeting and greeting people. It is about having positive experiences and thereby removing the fear their mum and dad naturally or generationally instilled in the family home. That fear is being removed. In addition, they are actually participating in their family and challenging and removing the perceptions and some of the ideas their parents have. When they are sitting at the dinner table, they are actually having really good, constructive conversations.

There are lots of different ways to measure those outcomes. It is not just about being in the programme. It is also about how to transition people out of the programme well, so that they do not lose the skills and way of thinking they have been equipped with and still want to engage with the other side or take the bus that goes from west Belfast to east Belfast. There are lots of hard outcomes that are very measurable but it is the soft outcomes that are sometimes more impactful in terms of changing people's lives.