Mr. John O'Donoghue:

I will first answer the Senator's first question on buying a house or a property. As I said previously, many people may not know that they own a leasehold interest because there is nothing wrong with a leasehold interest and there is certainly nothing wrong with a long leasehold title. It is seen as a good and marketable interest in property. Anyone on the market today who is buying an apartment will buy a leasehold. If they are selling on their apartment it is selling a leasehold. Banks take a charge over leaseholds. There is no problem whatsoever in that regard.

With the 299 year lease between St. Vincent's Holdings and the HSE there is a specific agreement within this document that provides that the HSE will not seek to extend the term of the lease or acquire the underlying freehold. In certain circumstances where money is spent on land or buildings are built, the leasehold owner would have, under the landlord and tenant Acts, a right to acquire the freehold. It goes back to the fact that this site is specifically being used by the State for the purpose of building a state-of-the-art maternity facility, on foot of a planning permission that was granted in 2017, and not for any other purpose. There are some restrictions, including that the State will not sell on its interest to a third party. That is agreed with St. Vincent's. It wants to operate a public healthcare campus. In 250 years' time, if the State decided that it no longer wished to carry out public healthcare, it would need to speak to St. Vincent's and hand it back the site. It is agreed that it will not be seeking to extend the lease, other than by agreement between the parties. The parties can agree to whatever they want but there is a minimum 299 year period. The State will not try to use legislative provisions, under the landlord and tenant Acts, to acquire the underlying freehold.

I am very satisfied that the interest the State will acquire by way of a 299 year lease is absolutely protecting the State's interest in that building in order to deliver public healthcare facilities in the future. If it is decided that a maternity facility is no longer required, in 50, 70, 90 or 100 years' time, and if the parties are happy with that, including the new designated activity company, DAC, that is set up, the State can use this site for other public healthcare facilities. It does not necessarily have to be used as a maternity facility for 299 years. That does not breach the terms of the lease.

I wish to correct a point that was made earlier. The permitted use in the lease is to provide clinically appropriate and legally permissible services for maternity, but also any other public health care services. It has been argued that this wording could provide a third party with a way of preventing certain services being provided. It does not allow St. Vincent's to terminate any property rights or prevent the hospital being used by the State.