Mr. Des Carville:

-----or low interest rate environment, lending institutions need to generate a return on their excess cash but credit unions cannot. The way to make a return is by lending and making a margin on the lending versus the deposit base or funding cost. That equation is wrong. Either credit unions have to lend more or interest rates need to increase, which brings me to the Chairman's second point.

There is a viability question if this trend continues in the longer term. We must not forget that there are 220 individual credit unions and they all have different risk appetites and membership profiles and so on. It is not a homogenous group. Within that, there are definitely some credit unions that have the risk appetite and the wherewithal to do more SME lending and mortgage lending. There are limits set by the Central Bank, which is independent of us, but when credit unions start coming towards their limits, they can apply for an extension to those limits. Many credit unions that are hitting their limits have done that. Not every credit union wants to do SME lending or mortgage lending.

On engagement and lobbying, my team spends an awful lot of time with the sector and meeting individual credit unions. There were two people with the Minister of State at the Irish League of Credit Unions, ILCU, conference recently. We talk extensively to the sector to try to find out what is happening behind the scenes and on the ground. We are very receptive to the representative bodies talking to us at any stage. They are well represented in that regard.