Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

A number of issues have been raised. I share the concerns raised by the previous speakers. To address Deputy Bruton, I have committed to a number of employers that we will track and review this to see if we are putting jobs in jeopardy or are placing an excessive a cost on businesses. The Tánaiste is very clear that we will phase this in in order to give such businesses time to adapt and to cope with it. It could potentially increase the payroll bill by 0.8% to 1% in some cases, which may put extreme pressure on businesses, certainly from a cash point of view if one has to replace customer-facing roles. We will monitor this and will continue to address the concerns of Deputies Shanahan, Flaherty, Duffy and Bruton, and others who are concerned about engaging with the small and medium-sized enterprise, SME, community as we track and watch this as it is rolled out. We will then seek to find ways to support, where possible, these businesses.

Rebates are not very proportionate and have not worked very well in the past when it came to other redundancy schemes, and so on. All of us want to ensure we do not jeopardise any jobs or businesses. There is, as had been referred to by Deputy Bruton, in section 10 an inability to pay provision but that may come too late for some businesses or is a hard bar to reach. It has not been used, as far as I am aware, in the minimum wage legislation. We will track this and try to find other ways to support the SME community, if needs be, through our business development agencies, such as our local enterprise organisation, LEO, network or Enterprise Ireland. We are trying to find ways to provide support, if needs be. We will monitor this but such a provision does not belong in legislation. What is important here is that we introduce a statutory sick pay scheme and that we track that aspect of it.

This is similar to the provision where the Minister of the day may adjust and make recommendations every 12 months to increase this. The effect on the economy at that time will be tracked, not just for employers but also for employees in terms of cost of living and so on. That will be monitored to get the balance right, which I stress here.

We recognise this is not the ideal time to bring in this legislation given what has happened over the past number of years with Covid-19 and Ukraine. We recognise also, however, that we are an outlier in Europe by not having a statutory sick pay scheme. It is important we bring one in and the commitment was made on the floor of the Dáil that we would do that. We must ensure we do so in a manner in which businesses can cope with it.

There is a commitment to keep PRSI as low as we possibly can for employers, given with the effect that this could have on employees. This scheme may limit the need to increase PRSI on employers, so there may be an offset of cost there. That is something that we will track and keep an eye on as well.

I have talked to many in the SME community and I have met many businesses, as has the Tánaiste and the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, over perhaps the past year to 18 months and have discussed the legislation with them.

We have been trying to encourage them to work with us on this scheme and to recognise the importance of protecting their employees and ensuring that employees do not feel that they have to go to work. Everyone would benefit from that - other staff, customers and clients. Many members of the business community throughout the country tell us that they cannot get staff and access the skills they need. Many of those are customer-facing roles. If we can strengthen overall terms and conditions, we believe it will assist in competing for talent.

In the European context, we are out of sync by not having a statutory sick pay scheme. We are constantly striving to get the balance right between protecting employees and protecting employers. The Government's response in recent years has shown that we are on the side of job creators as well as employees, in light of our supports during Covid, which were of equal benefit to both. We are introducing this legislation in that spirit and in a balanced manner, with an implementation phase of four years committed to by the Cabinet. I hope members will accept that we are doing our best to get the balance right. We recognise that it puts pressure on SMEs. Larger companies can probably absorb these costs. It is fair to say that many employers already have their own sick pay schemes. While many others do not have formal schemes, they operate some schemes, look after their staff well and facilitate them when they are sick or have other commitments. There is a balance. This Bill puts a formal scheme in place, but many employers already operate within this space well, and we should recognise that.