David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Of course. I am asking Mr. Watt about those private conversations. I am asking him about conversations in regard to this process. We are entitled to know the Minister's view.

I have a final question. The circular issued by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in December 2021 in regard to secondments states that all secondments will be temporary in nature and, in general, will be for a period of six months or up to a maximum of five years. A response to a parliamentary question to the Minister in regard to secondments in the Department of Health states that 14 of the Department's employees in various grades from clerical officer through to principal officer are on secondment to other organisations and that the duration of these secondments varies between six months and five years. The circular and the rules are very clear that secondments are temporary in nature and they should be secondments in the time range of six months to five years.

There are 14 people from the Department on secondment. How many of those secondments are what are now being termed "open-ended secondments"? If this was a permanent departure by the CMO, and we were told in private session with the CMO that he was not coming back to the Department, how could this reasonably be described as a secondment?