Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 21 April 2022

Joint Oireachtas Committee on International Surrogacy

Surrogacy in Ireland and in Irish and International Law: Assisted Human Reproduction Coalition

Photo of Mary Seery KearneyMary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

First, I echo Senator Ruane's apology. I rowed in with her on that subject and perhaps escalated a row. I apologise to the Acting Chair, because it put her in a difficult position, to our witnesses and in the context of the general discourse around this matter. There are many people who are possibly opposed to surrogacy. It is perfectly all right for them to hold that opinion and we completely respect their right to hold a different opinion. They do not, however, need to express that opinion in inflammatory terms. That was where it became something that my colleague, rightfully and courageously, started to challenge, and I support her in doing so.

I imagined that today would be much easier because there would be people in the room with whom I have shared experiences and relationships. As it transpired, I wept openly as they read out some of the stories, although I tried to hide behind a mask for some of it. That was because I either identified with some aspects or because I was heartbroken from hearing about some of the experiences people have had. My own experience is that once this subject was spoken about in public, courageous conversations started happening among people in pubs, or perhaps over Zoom during Covid-19. My experience in the last year and a bit has been that people have contacted me regarding the prejudice they have experienced, shared their own heartfelt stories and their need to see legislation enacted urgently. I will refer to part of a communication sent to me. It is part of an exchange between a person and the priest in her church. In that exchange, the woman said, the priest advised her that she needed, as part of bringing up her child, to explain that she is different. The woman then asked if she would ever hear a priest at mass saying that IVF babies are not as sacred or that they are different, and he answered by saying there was a good chance of that happening and that the woman should speak to her daughter for that reason. This was the response to someone whose baby was born via IVF treatment, before we even get to the experience of surrogacy. Therefore, this context needs to be explained. There are people who oppose surrogacy, on religious grounds perhaps, and those people should be transparent about where they are coming from with their opposition.

I imagined we were going to have several rounds of questions, so I wrote down many topics to discuss. I have, however, been very struck by the words and of being complicit in validating prejudice. It is very important that we do not do that. It is important that we acknowledge a pathway towards reproductive justice and move on it. Ms Bonnie made a powerful contribution at a sitting of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters on International Women's Day last year. The committee on that occasion sat in the Dáil Chamber and it was there that Ms Bonnie first used the words "reproductive justice". The phrase captured my imagination, and I followed up with Ms Bonnie and we talked. This issue is about reproductive justice for women and the intersectionality of women's rights with disability issues and also about those on a fertility journey. Therefore, I think the phrase "reproductive justice" captures that vision. I also, however, claimed a little bit of it for myself and for those in similar situations. My experience on that committee has been one where I have encountered the idea of ableist privilege and learned how people with disabilities experience ableist privilege. One wonders sometimes when we hear statements made before this committee whether the people making them might perhaps word their contributions differently if they were not coming from a place of ableist privilege. Such experiences have made me ultrasensitive to disability. Therefore, I wish to give Ms Bonnie the opportunity to talk about this aspect.

I commend Ms O'Connell for her proposed new section 7A , which was submitted to the committee. It is 25 pages long, so well done for doing that on a bank holiday weekend. I agree with and endorse much of it. As a consequence of yesterday's meeting, though, I would amend the definition of "exploitative". Ms O'Connell has suggested a definition that refers to the practice of unduly influencing a person through economic pressure to entice or convince him or her to participate in a surrogacy agreement or other such arrangement. I would remove the word "economic", because what we heard from yesterday's witnesses involved siblings and almost a level of coercion in that context. I suggest a change in the definition, from one reflecting a situation where pressure emanates from payment in an economic context, to one that clarifies that pressure can be applied via many means and that exploitation can be addressed by many means. I welcome comments from Ms O'Connell's on this aspect.

Ms Cohalan addressed the issue of inflammatory language. I refer to the effect of stigmatising children who are innocent and do not deserve it. What Mr. Kenny Moore said about a child in a playground broke my heart. A parent's worst nightmare is for someone to turn around to his or her child and tell him or her that his or her parent is not really his or her parent, when that is absolutely not the case. I refer as well to the idea of someone's child knowing, almost from the moment that he or she is born, that there is what has been called a "tummy mummy" and then there is mammy, who was there beforehand, all through the pregnancy, and who will be there until, in my case, my last breath. I will be at the big moments in life, such as the wedding, to whomever that will be. Hopefully, as well, I will hold a grandchild and do all these things. I hope the journey of others will not be as horrific as mine.

Regarding the idea of a child being stigmatised, what is required in this conversation and in this journey as we move towards ethically legislating for international surrogacy is to ensure we do not inflame hate and-or give those who would jump on a bandwagon any way to be contrarian and hateful a licence to do so due to the language used in these noble Houses. Many people contact Irish Families Through Surrogacy seeking advice and support. My journey began way before that was possible. There was nobody to contact. What do we see as being the vision post legislation? I am sorry there were so many questions, but I was planning to ask them over several rounds.

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