Ms Natalie Gamble:

There are a few questions in there. The Senator asked about shortages of surrogates in the UK and waiting lists at the non-profit organisations. It is one of the big things that does encourage parents from the UK to go overseas, because there is a real lack of certainty about when they might find a match with a surrogate. There is definitely a disparity in the number of surrogates when the parents are looking for them, so that is one of the big drivers for parents going overseas.

In terms of the question about surrogates changing their minds, it is incredibly rare. Bearing in mind that I am a lawyer who practices in this area, so if people do have those sorts of problems, I am the first person that they call, but we have only had a very tiny handful of cases where that has happened. I am talking about possibly four or five cases out of thousands of domestic UK surrogacy arrangements over several decades. The cases where that does happen tend to be situations in which people have rushed into things, not taken their time, very often met on Facebook groups and not gone through the proper process of thinking through all the implications of what they are doing. When the communication between the parties breaks down during the pregnancy, that can lead to difficulties, but it is exceptionally rare for that to happen. When it does, the way that the law works in the UK is that the family court will make a determination about who the child should live with on the basis of what is in their best interests. Every case is fact-specific; it is not a question of the surrogate having a right to keep the baby. It would depend on what is best for the child. The four or five cases there have been, have been split fairly evenly in terms of outcome.

The Senator asked the very important question of what makes surrogacy ethical. In my mind, it is very easy to silo different types of surrogacy and say we want it to be domestic, we want it to be altruistic and say that all of those arrangements are ethical if they fall in that category, but I do not think it is as simple as that. I think constantly every day about the ethics of the surrogacy arrangements that we are involved in. For me, it has a number of different components. It is about having a strong relationship that is direct between the parents and the surrogate so that they are going into this with informed consent. They are wanting to help each other. Everybody is doing this as adults who know what they are doing. It is important to look at the role of the third-party intermediaries. Where those intermediaries operate well, they apply screening. They make sure that people are suitable, that they are well informed and that they have been through psychological assessments, counselling, legal advice, etc. That can be a very positive influence on making sure that the arrangements are ethical. That is less so where there is not a fair balance of power. In some jurisdictions we see those third parties have a very controlling influence and keep the parents and the surrogates at a distance from each other. That is less ethical and more fraught with problems.

The child's welfare being at the heart of things is key for an ethical surrogacy arrangement. What does that mean? That means that the child should be recognised in the right family promptly, but it also means that there should be openness and transparency and that information should be kept for the child in the long-term future, so that the child has a positive story and has access to information to answer any questions they may have as they grow older.

The last question was about pre-birth and post-birth orders. We deal with parents from the UK going to all the different surrogacy destinations overseas. I have seen all the different models. There are some where there is a court process even before conception, there are some where there is a court process during the pregnancy and there are some where there is no court process and there is recognition from birth.

There are also post-birth application processes. The ones that work the smoothest are those seen in some US states where there are stipulations that people should have legal advice, counselling and so on, they should enter into a written agreement and, during the pregnancy, there is a judicial process to ensure that has been done properly so that, when the child is born, a determination has already been made that all of the safeguards have been put in place and, therefore, the child belongs in the right family from the moment of birth. These arrangements seem to work the smoothest and best.

The problem with post-birth recognition is that there is an inevitable delay, meaning that the children are in limbo and without status. Sometimes, they are even stateless, which can be significant when crossing borders. There is a problem with recognising arrangements too early as well. In South Africa, for example, people go through a court process before they even conceive, but that is onerous when they do not know whether they will even be able to conceive.

Does this answer all of the Senator's questions?