Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I thank all the witnesses. I have no question for Dr. Murphy. My question was actually asked. As far as I can discern we do not have statistics as to the scale of this in Ireland, except to say that it is very likely similar to other developed countries but it is fascinating. It is something we need to return to and take action on. It has certainly given me significant insight. It has very serious consequences for the student and the system as a whole. The integrity of the system is important and it is worth noting the work that QQI does. Organisations are some of the unsung heroes of the system. It has to stand up to rigours. I take the opportunity to acknowledge that.

I have a question for Mr. Conlon on deprivation index scores. That allows us a more detailed and accurate insight into the socio-economic profile. There has been some progress, albeit from a low base from 2015 in terms of access for students from the Travelling community. Have we been meeting those targets? No doubt there is also a target this year for students from a Traveller background of 60, up from 48 in 2019. Are we likely to reach that target? Some of the discussion is about the rebalancing of the tertiary sector. I am conscious that in rebalancing it needs to stay proportionate. Obviously we need to be careful in terms of how we continue to ensure that our high standards at higher education remain very high as well.

How do we strike that balance? As has been already acknowledged, it is about the integration of apprenticeships and higher education and a flow-through in that regard.

I have many questions with regard to apprenticeships, all of which I will not have time to pose today. The cultural piece is enormous. I am not sure if Mr. Brownlee or Dr. Trant have seen the video that was doing the rounds recently on social media, in particular around Cork. It is a video of a man, Ken O'Connell, who is an electrician, pleading, as he does every year, with parents of leaving certificate students who are thinking of doing an apprenticeship to not discourage their children from doing an apprenticeship. There is an enormous snobbery out there that we have to deal with. That is one of the biggest pieces of work. We need to transform the perception of apprenticeships. They are diverse and they have the potential to be even more diverse. It is perhaps an issue at home more so than at school. It is an issue in some of the schools but others are very progressive in that regard. To be fair to the Minister, he has the right attitude in regard to this area. It is for all of us to continue to push apprenticeships.

Aside from the cultural stuff, there are structural issues as well that we need to deal with. I have previously raised with the witnesses that there are trades and apprenticeships in respect of which getting instructors is very challenging. In the areas of plumbing, electrical and instrumentation it is very difficult for the training centres to recruit people from industry because they paid a lot better in industry. There is a superstructure of public sector pay which one cannot go beyond so it is a complicated issue to address. That feeds into the waiting lists and delays. Currently, across large parts of the country one could be waiting two years to do a grade III electrical course. That is holding people back a fair bit.

The issue of older people who might have a mortgage or are renting and their ability to change career and go down the apprenticeship route was mentioned. The earn-as-you-learn model makes sense but that is challenging for those who have a mortgage, childcare costs and so on. I would welcome the witnesses' thoughts on grant structures and so on we could introduce in that regard.

Senator O'Loughlin raised the point about listening to the business community. Very often when one speaks about the business community in this context it is not IBEC but the man or woman with a van and two or three people working for them we are speaking about. It is about Brownlee electrical or Trant plumbing. That is challenging in its own way because it is diffuse and atomised. It is not always easy to know exactly what the needs are. A particular issue that is regularly raised with me - this may be more particular to the urban settings - is that an awful lot more employers would be attracted to apprenticeships if apprentices were on-the-job for four days and one day in the centre, as opposed to block release for six months or 12 weeks on two occasions both in terms of the businesses ability to continue their work but also in terms of the apprentice's income and his or her ability to go to Dublin, Waterford or wherever for the courses they need to attend, which is a challenge.

There are some structural issues. The cultural issue is the biggest issue but there are some structural issues that need to be addressed as well.