Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank both professors for their very insightful presentations and their wider commentary. I was about to use the phrase "over recent days" but they have both been talking about this for quite some time, long before the most recent escalation activities. I will ask them both a couple of questions to begin. I then have individual questions for each of them that follow on from their presentations. In their opinion, what is the degree of Irish exposure to contagion in the case of an escalation of the situation? Things have eased off, we hope, in the past couple of days. A lot of focus was given to military activities in the Irish exclusive economic zone, but what will the contagion be if there were to be military intervention, a bombing campaign or even a land invasion? How could that impact on Ireland? Professor Tonra touched on this a little when he referred to disinformation campaigns and cyberattacks, which we know all about in this jurisdiction.

The second more general question is on the scope for Irish activity either at Government level or, more importantly, parliamentary level, because this is a committee of Parliament, to engage with European partners to address the concerns both witnesses raised in quite some detail. We are looking towards the next Conference of Community and European Affairs Committees of Parliaments of the European Union meeting in a couple of months' time in Paris. What role should parliamentarians be playing in the European debate? We talk about the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence discussing foreign policy and defence co-operation more widely but, in respect of a European scope, it seems any time we talk about defence, and shared interests and security, in the European Union, we very quickly go down the rabbit hole of concerns about the militarisation of the EU and opposition to a European army. While that may make for a good slogan, it does not help us to actually address the very live and real concerns that are on our doorstep.

I have two more specific questions. Professor Ó Beacháin mentioned the 13 former Soviet states he worked in and the Russian role in each of them, which was highlighted in Kazakhstan in recent weeks. He and Professor Tonra hit on one area of particular interest and that is the reaction and response in Finland in particular but also in Sweden to the ongoing escalation. This committee visited Finland during the lifetime of the previous Oireachtas. We had good engagement with our counterparts. It is a country of similar standing and we have a number of shared interests. In the Brexit debates, Finland was a surprisingly strong supporter of all Irish interests. It also shares many military interests with this State, as does Sweden. There was a lot of talk at the start of the pandemic about how Finland had an amazing emergency response unit because it had been preparing for emergency for its entire existence in fear of an invasion or a military attack and not necessarily a pandemic. What are the learnings for Ireland from the approach of Finland and, more important, what support do the likes of Finland and Sweden need from a like-minded country such as Ireland?

My final point is a more general one for Professor Tonra. He will forgive me for saying that it is a point I have heard him make a few times, going back to my time at University College Dublin, to be quite frank, which relates to the limitations of Europe in respect of the ambition for a common security and defence policy. He referred to it again in his presentation and he refers to it with great regularity. Do we simply have to accept that there is only so far we can go? Is the move the EU has made over the past few years with the last treaty in this area, and the appointment of a higher representative, as good as it gets? Ultimately, will member states' concerns, and he cited the example of Germany quite succinctly, trump most areas if it is a case of one or the other?

I will go back to my original second question. Where does this then go for us as parliamentarians who work across a European network in highlighting that this is a concern? Deputy Ó Murchú and I, along with others, are part of the Conference on the Future of Europe. We talk about these issues. There is a desire to talk about how the EU can solve all problems, but what are the realistic approaches, especially in the area of what could be called defence or security, but is really more about providing that peace of mind to European citizens, particularly when we are facing this new wave of threats from state and non-state actors? How do we have that discussion at a national and European level in a way that can lead to some form of strengthening of capabilities?