Mr. Tony Donohoe:

I will take the apprenticeships question first, if I may.

It is a bit like leaving certificate reform insofar as everybody agrees on the "what" but there is less agreement on the "how". This one has been around for the last decade. During the last crisis it was decided by the then Government that the apprenticeship model and the number of apprenticeships available were not meeting the needs of the economy, especially given that there were just 27 craft apprenticeships. There are 62 apprenticeships now. There are opportunities but, as Dr. Smyth has said, it is very difficult to change the cultural mindset. Ireland has either the highest or second highest succession or progression rate to higher education in the EU. It is very difficult to persuade people that educational attainment involves anything other than higher education. Culturally, it is what all levels of society aspire to. We should not underestimate that challenge. I still believe that by providing for a broader number of apprenticeships and making these progression pathways a reality for people, we can demonstrate that they can go on and do an honours degree, a master’s degree or a PhD if they want to. If those progression pathways are transparent, this approach is more likely to work but it is going to take a heck of a long time. It is worth doing. The earn and learn model works in other countries. I believe that the institutes of technology and the technological universities have an important part to play in this as well.

I agree with Senator Dolan’s point on investment in equipment. We found that in some apprenticeships, we need more capital investment in medical devices, etc. This is part of a much broader conversation about capital investment in higher and further education. Education is trying to compete with health and housing, which are the current must-haves. Due to its longer term nature, we tend not to notice the deterioration in capital and the lack of investment over a longer period of time. That is a big mistake. We are shoring up problems for the future.

I agree 100% that there is a significant opportunity to embed transition year in some other way into the leaving certificate. Ireland’s transition year is quite unusual when one looks at other education systems. It is a real strength. It provides an opportunity to bring business and education together. I believe IBEC organised an event last year with the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals which enabled many young people interact with business online, ironically. Anything that brings business and education together is very powerful. If that is to be valued, it has to be assessed in some ways. There is an old business adage that what gets measured gets managed. That also applies to education. It does not have to involve examinations, but it needs built in to the evaluation and assessment process.