Mr. Michael Taft:

Deputy Ó Cuív has touched on the strength of what social insurance has the capacity to be in society. That is never more obvious than in the case of social insurance pensions. On the Continent, pay-related pensions are paid through PRSI or social insurance forms whereas we have a flat rate. They have a much more elevated and enhanced approach. That is important because social insurance is the ultimate in solidarity. It is the ultimate in insurances. We can talk about widening the pool and de-risking the population. We all rely on each other. We put in what we can afford and we take out what we need. It is the ultimate principle not only of solidarity but also of something that can transcend ages. Interestingly, after the general election the Red C poll asked people whether they supported an increase in the pension age, which was the third largest issue in the election, and two thirds of respondents were opposed to raising the pension age. The highest age group to oppose an increase were young people at 70%. There is a generational war type of commentary that we get in some parts of the debate. Something like this issue is an example of why some of that type of commentary, and I do not want to call it nonsense, does not really reflect what people believe.

On the point made by Deputy Ó Cuív, what I put in as a young person to fund - metaphorically - my grandfathers means that when I become a grandfather and retire, I will get supported. If I put in money to support somebody who is going on maternity benefit, I may not benefit from that but my partner and my family will. They put in money because I might rely on sickness pay. It is true that the Exchequer has had to give a subvention in three quarters of all the years since 1950 and since the Social Insurance Fund was taken up. I think there is an argument for making the Social Insurance Fund more robust and better able to withstand recessions in order that it does not have to rely on the Exchequer, although Exchequer funding will still be there. If it were not for the pandemic, the Government's budgetary papers in 2019 projected that this year there would have been a social insurance surplus of €2 billion, and in 2023 a surplus of €4 billion and an accumulated surplus of €15 billion. Social insurance brings in a fair bit of money and we can afford the expenditures. Given that SIPTU's analysis, and this seems to be confirmed by IFAC, is that pensions will not increase as a proportion of national income between now and 2030, we have time - we cannot be complacent - to come up with more fiscally robust measures that are socially equitable and build on the insurance principle that has been mentioned.