Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

It is really important to recognise that we have DCU, UCC and NUI Maynooth represented today. I thank the witnesses for all their submissions on this topic.

Some of the areas we have been talking about relate to trust: trust in the current leaving certificate, public trust in the leaving certificate, trust in our teachers and trust with our students. There are many stakeholders. "Trust" is a word we are using a lot. Another word I wish to use is "fair". Fairness is very important. The committee had a submission last week from people who spoke about areas of disadvantage where 26% or 27%, I believe, of students would go on to higher education. I come from Ballinasloe, in east Galway and Roscommon, and from an area Pobal designates as deprived. That means there are many single-parent families and many children there who may not go on to further and higher education for a myriad of different reasons. Is the leaving certificate fair? I have my own very strong opinions on that.

I am delighted to hear that Professor O'Leary compiled the study to which he referred. I am very happy to hear about the engagement of teachers. I understand that the study involved a sample of about 750. Professor O'Leary mentioned that 30% agreed with being involved in direct assessment and that they also felt there would be fairer outcomes for their students, particularly, perhaps, in DEIS schools and so on. Would Professor O'Leary like to speak a little more about that accurate, consistent and fair decision-making in the process? Could he point to one or two lessons we have learnt from accredited grades?

I thank Professor Stobart for his contribution. I was very interested to hear about France, New Zealand and Norway introducing new curricula. Professor Stobart talked about how we have to adapt to a digital future. He talked also about the high numbers taking vocational courses in Norway and said that 80% of marks there and in France are determined by teachers. How did Norway bring that system into place? Here in Ireland we are trying to promote the apprenticeship programme and the opportunities for further and higher education. We currently have a way lower bar in respect of apprenticeships. We have 60 apprenticeship courses, with another 18 to come on stream.

I wish to pose a question to Professor Looney as well. It is great to see she is a veteran of leaving certificate reform, as she mentioned. She does not look like a veteran. It is really important that she has been at the coalface to see about changes and bringing them forward. We can adapt and change. We are flexible. Why not take the best of what we have brought with us historically through the leaving certificate but also adapt it to make sure it is a fairer system and has the trust of everyone around us. Professor Looney mentioned the trade-off in that regard. I would like her to tell me her top three things we should hold close to our hearts as to what we will be looking at when it comes to leaving certificate reform.

Perhaps Professor O'Leary could answer first, followed by Professor Stobart.