Dr. Brendan Dunford:

No doubt it is challenging. Dr. Moran did well in expressing and limiting the expression of his frustrations. In fairness, it is complex. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is in an invidious position sometimes trying to please everybody, but we definitely need to take that step.

I always try and look at it from the farmer's point of view because ultimately the farmer will make the difference on the ground for the environment or maybe against it in some cases. How do we convince that farmer? In the past, payments, as Mr. Sheehan mentioned, have been short term. For example, it is a five-year payment, and then what happens? There is no confidence to invest in the future. As a farmer, you always have to think long term. It has been short-term payments.

The environmental payments have lacked credibility. You would have had an adviser a few years ago telling a guy to clear a field and the same adviser coming back telling him to protect it. Many payments have been to prevent farmers from damaging the environment as opposed to rewarding them for looking after the environment. There are issues around that.

I would like to highlight the fact it is not only the money. The policy is the big one. There is a huge opportunity now. The CAP strategic plan offers a significant opportunity but it does need tweaking. Putting a limit on what farmers can be paid to deliver these ecosystem services we desperately want is not a good idea. If we get more, we should be prepared to pay more.

I point out the fact that probably within farming there are cultural obstacles. Farming is a very public profession and, right now, within the psyche of farmers, you are judged by your neighbours and your community about how green are your fields and how pedigree is your Irish stock to some degree. We need to shift that around and get farmers to think that, as Mr. Sheehan said about the weeds, sometimes having a little more biodiversity and capturing a little more carbon - having a little agri-forestry on the farm - are signs of a very good, smart, multi-functional farmer who will leave a real legacy, not only for his family but for society. That is a major change.

One of the frustrations for me is that the language we are using is all wrong. It is dominated too much by policy and science and we are not listening enough to the farmers on the ground. It is quite hard to hear their voice because you really need to get in there and listen. I am privileged to meet farmers every day and the story I hear is very different and much more positive and open to change than is portrayed generally in the media. That would be my real frustration.