Dr. James Moran:

We work within the framework but we can do so in the Irish Government. Even in the past week, I saw something which is very worrying. We had a 5% target for these biodiversity managed areas, BMAs, Mr. Sheehan is talking about in the eco schemes. I do not know what has happened in the past eight weeks but it has gone from 5% to 4% at the stroke of a pen where the target in the agrifood strategy is 10%. That signals we are on the same scenario with out CAP strategic plan.

I may be talking in manner that is a little too frustrated now. However, in dealing with these issues, knowing what we know, knowing it can work and knowing farmers such as Mr. Sheehan are crying out for some positive moves to make this happen, and given the lack of leadership at departmental level, at Government level, around this table as well and among the farm organisations - I will probably be crucified for having said this - we have to take positive action now. This is the problem, and it does not have to be at that extent.

One thing about sustainability is that it is all about economics, society and the environment working in harmony, but we must see it from the basic principles. The economy is a construct of society - it serves society - and we all have to work within the limits of the environment. This is where we need to get to.

I have gone off on an awful tangent. I do not think I have answered any of the Deputy's questions. It is just this level of frustration. As scientists, as people working on the ground and as farmers, we see and live the issues. Now we just need the political leadership to make this happen.

We cannot blame Europe. We are very good in this country at saying Europe makes us do this and that. We are European citizens. We are involved in shaping that framework. The framework this time has been handed to us - back to the member states. It is as though they said, "Right lads, you sort it out this time at national level", for the CAP to a certain extent. And what is it? It is a race to the bottom across all member states worried that if one of us takes an ambition, we will erode our competitive advantage whereas we should be thinking we will take the lead and use that to our competitive advantage to sell our products as high-environment high-welfare products.

This has to involve the industry as well, as Mr. Sheehan said, if some people within it lead on this as well and start differentiating the products. I do not see why Bord Bia and Origin Green do not differentiate Irish products based on their environmental standards. We say it is all great, knowing damn well it is not.