Dr. John O'Connor:

I would not agree with the Deputy when he says that lifelong learning is tangential to this discussion. It is central to it and leaving certificate reform. Regarding the Deputy's question on delivery and certification, we can be very open-minded. We have the toolkit available to us in terms of different types of certification. We have QQI and FET certification. If we think again about zooming out and upper secondary education, it can be delivered not just in school but outside it. It can be delivered in workplaces. We have other certification bodies that can provide input into this. It involves looking in a more holistic way at what the right mix of certification is, awarding bodies that might be involved and further education and general education being mixed. That kind of zooming out and thinking about that idea of upper secondary education where we have general education and further education gives us a lot of tools to play with in terms of finding the right mix of certifications and places and location of delivery, which is not always a classroom in a school. It can be delivered outside a school in a workplace or other education and training settings. We have the policy instruments available to us to design those more rounded pathways for young people.