Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I confirm I am in the wilds of Agriculture House. I thank the Minister of State. I listened to what he said and it reminded me of the discussion we had last week with Barbara Nolan. We discussed the rule of law. I will make one or two comments and ask one or two questions. Coming back to Article 7, at one level one wonders if it is toothless. How can we get out of the General Affairs Council and the European Council? It depends who votes what way. It is not that I have an issue with that but how useful is it in this situation? My question is deeper than that. If the ECJ were to come back with a finding that did not allow the EU to proceed, that would have significant ramifications for current and future issues around the rule of law. That is musing on my part. I do not necessarily want the Minister of State to comment unless he wants to, but I would be delighted to hear it.

As to how we proceed, last week when discussing this with Barbara Nolan, I said I agreed that we need to tread very carefully. The escalation this week was significant. For the first time since I left the Parliament, somebody contacted me about that speech. That surprised me. This person found it so significant and wondered what my perspective was. I listened to Sean Kelly MEP. I have heard him make many speeches over the years on this and other issues, but his speech indicated a very strong position. I would consider it a change in position from the Government. Would the Minister of State be happy to comment on that?

When it comes to conditionality, we had many debates. My concern about conditionality is always that it is a double-edged sword. If we use the withholding of European funds, that becomes a weapon for those in power to say there is an impact on the people of Poland because the EU is withholding funds. I understand there is carrot and stick and that money talks; nonetheless, we could get badly bitten by this.

The last point I will make is a general comment. When we talk about the supremacy of EU law, it is important we understand that we do not have EU law in every circumstance. Things happen throughout Europe that we as individuals, as politicians or as members of political parties might not agree with but not all of it is covered by EU law. That means the European Court of Justice can only act in certain circumstances. Sometimes we need to be careful when we talk about the EU acting in areas where it does not have competence.

It is something I have noticed over a long period of time and it can confuse people outside the system. It is not that I am an expert in it - far from it - but I have seen on many occasions people talking about the EU acting when in fact, there is probably no legal basis for it to act. I will be speaking in the Dáil in a short while so I must leave soon.