Dr. Joseph Ryan:

I thank the Deputy for the questions. I have been following this discussion over the previous sessions, and I would like to pick up a couple of points. The Deputy spoke about a thoughtful conversation. I compliment the Chairman and the committee. I have been very impressed, even this morning. I was very much taken by the Deputy's comment about the different relationship between the teacher and pupil at second level and third level. It is a very well-made point. To some extent at second level, as people advance through, it is a question of letting go and increasingly allowing them to take responsibility. This goes to the point about what are the skills deficits when people come in.

I echo Mr. Whyte's comments on apprenticeship and I fully agree with him. Our society is a complex organism and it needs lots of different skills. There is a question, however, about valuing all those skills equally. This may go to the point of whether we have three different types of leaving certificate or whether it is possible to have all of that in one. This is why we need the report to have a look at some of this.

On the question of apprenticeship, the Deputy mentioned the point of perception, which is a key part of this. We had the old apprenticeships and we have the new apprenticeships but we still call them apprenticeships. In the public mind, people do not necessarily distinguish between these things. I believe they may have an old-fashioned sense around this. It may have something to do with the marketing of this. There is also something about lifelong learning and earn and learn. We especially need to look at the funding through the national training fund if employers are being taxed up to a certain percentage at this stage. It seems we have to have more conversation about that perception piece.

On the question of open access, I was talking to a senior member of a university in Europe. Anyone who wants to do medicine can come into that university. Of course, it has an enormous failure rate. This goes to the point made about cost. Common sense must come into play on this also.