Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Chairman. It has become clear not just in the past two years, but through several years, that the leaving certificate is in need of radical transformation. I know the arguments that are made in respect of State certification. That is an issue to which we can return. However, it is true that too much rides on the terminal examination and that one day. It has too many ramifications for students and their lives thereafter. It can go wrong for a student who has done all the work. Although there have been changes in many subjects in recent years - the leaving certificate I did is not the same as the one currently on offer - there are still too many subjects where it is all on the examination, or too much of it is.

In the context of transformation of the leaving certificate, it is important to state that this is not just about the structures and the examination. We need to transform radically the culture of and the way we talk about the leaving certificate. I appeal to the media not to make such an event of the leaving certificate and the results each year. Many schools do not send enough students to third level because of disadvantage and structural obstacles, but there are other schools that probably send too many students to third level. Such schools may have many students whose skills would be better suited to apprenticeships of various kinds. Any discussion of the leaving certificate needs to take account of the need to transform radically how we deal with apprenticeships and other forms of vocational education.

In the context of how we talk about this, it is important that we approach it with an open mind. We need to discuss all the options. There are options that, in my view, could make things worse. I would be very hesitant with regard to personal statements or things that could give additional advantages to students from a privileged background but while we are in this process we need to be open-minded and discuss all the options.

I have several questions. As the most important voice is that of students, I will start with Ms Neville of the ISSU. The observations on Irish are well made and I certainly have a lot of sympathy in that regard. In other jurisdictions, one can accumulate the points, credits or whatever one needs to complete one's final examination over more than one year. In the North, for example, in one's final year, one is building on the previous year. Does Ms Austick believe we should be considering a system in which students' results build up gradually year on year?

The point made by the INTO about qualifications for students in special schools in the senior cycle cannot be lost as we progress through this process. It is not something I have considered in detail, to tell the truth, but it is very important it remains part of our discussions.

I am glad to see Mr. Gillespie from the TUI has rejoined the meeting. The TUI has made a very clear statement and I agree with its views on the leaving certificate applied, LCA, and the leaving certificate vocational programme, LCVP, and the need to make them more dynamic. I also agree there is a need to retain foundation level in Irish. The TUI is hesitant about continuous assessment. Some of that hesitancy is related to overassessment but some of it relates to concerns about teachers marking their own students. There are parts of our education system involving non-State exams that are marked externally, such as the Programme for International Student Assessment, PISA, scores at primary level. I am not asking the witnesses to commit to anything because this is a discussion and consultation but would the TUI be open minded regarding the potential for continuous assessments that are marked externally and in accordance with high standards? That would protect the important position of teachers in the Irish education system as advocates for students, as well as their position as teachers.