Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I found this discussion really interesting. It is nice to see Professor Tonge again. It has been a while. Before the pandemic, Professor Tonge was here in Leinster House and I thought what he had to say then was extremely interesting. I thank Mr. McCallister and Ms Mercer as well.

I get what Mr. McCallister says in terms of attitudinal changes being more important than institutional reforms. I suppose what would concern me is that the focus here is particularly on institutional reforms and the fact that we have an international legally-binding agreement that we all bought into on that basis. I suppose what concerns us as a committee is the implementation deficit. Are we only to keep moving on and on without implementing what was painstakingly agreed, whether it be in New Decade, New Approach or the Good Friday Agreement? Are we running away from this? Mr. McCallister says that we should lead in gently but I had to smile at that. After 23 years, maybe it is time for us to grasp what we need to do. My sons were not born 23 years ago. We are moving on to another generation. All of us here on the call have a real responsibility to make sure that it does not continue on for generations. We have to try to stop it at this generation.

My questions, I suppose, are for everyone, but maybe Professor Tonge and Mr. McCallister in particular. What are the main blocks, as they would see it, to implementing the outstanding elements, particularly in terms of the bill of rights? We can talk forever and a day about outcomes for citizens, but the measure on all of us, whether we are here in the Oireachtas, in the Assembly or in the Executive, is what difference there is for people on the ground. After all of those agreements, are we in a situation where the mother or young person in Shankill Road, Falls Road or wherever has a greater opportunity? Are we opening up things for them or are we closing them down, and are we almost using them to build up an industry around talking about it without getting in there and doing what needs to be done? For me, even going through New Decade, New Approach, all of the answers to all of the things that we spoke about in terms of the societal well-being are there. We do not need to reinvent the wheel around it. I very much appreciate I am coming from Mayo. I am coming from an outside view of this and I stand to be corrected on most or all of it.

The thing with the citizens' assembly is there is real hope for us there. If it was to be done right in terms of the terms of reference and the make-up, in particular, in having an inclusion of voices there, the architecture and structures that we talk about here could be examined and discussed within the context of other issues like rights-based health, education - in which I have a special interest - etc. regardless of the constitutional preference.

We can also have over-consultation and over-engagement with civic society as well. In 2019 we had 1,000 citizens from across the country and right across the island writing to the Taoiseach and to the people who are responsible for implementing these agreements saying what they basically wanted in a citizens’ assembly. The Taoiseach at the time agreed that he would certainly not rule that out and engaged with the idea of it. I want to know what our witnesses think where we cannot just keep pushing the can down the road. The Taoiseach at that time said that this should not be a threat to anybody’s constitutional preference and he even said that the Good Friday Agreement explicitly recognises and validates the legitimacy of both constitutional positions.

I would even say to Mr. McCallister that it is very difficult to hear what the merits of the union are, other than identity and we want to hear what these are. As republicans, nationalists and everyone across the island, would a citizens’ assembly not be an opportunity to say that this is why we really believe that the Six Counties should be a part of the union rather than Irish unity and we could have the discussions there.

I am sorry that I have gone on for so long because I want to get back to the issues of the bill of rights, the Assembly and the political attitudes and to ask whichever one of our guests would like to deal with these questions first. I know there is a great deal to be covered here and I wish to sincerely thank the committee and our guests for having this discussion.