Dr. Joseph Ryan:

I will add a supplemental answer. I thank the Deputy for her questions and her constant interest in education, which I appreciate, as with Senator Byrne's. The Deputy made a point about accountability. The need for accountability is a given when dealing with public moneys, but that concern should not lead us into micromanaging these institutions. This is one of the themes that is coming across.

On the question of the legislation's impact on borrowing, we have just had a technical move towards the technological university of the Shannon. It is a great day. We are looking at there being five technological universities by the start of next year. They are nascent bodies at the moment and will need time to build capacity. Our difficulty is that we are not even able to borrow at the moment. These bodies will need that ability if they are going to meet the ambitions set out in Government policy through frameworks such as Project Ireland 2040 and national plans.

I agree with the Deputy regarding the size of governing bodies. That was the point I was making. It is becoming an onerous role. It is becoming more difficult to attract people to take on this work.