Mr. Conor King:

I thank the Chairman and the members for their brilliant contributions. It is not our nature or our intent to be pessimistic about the Defence Forces. When we conduct things like the exit survey, we do so with a constructive mindset in order to provide constructive solutions, which we clearly provided in the exit survey. They are simple solutions if the will exists.

It is exactly the same with Strengthening our Defence Forces - the high-level implementation plan. There is a roadmap there. We played our part and we signed up to it. We also made about 15 fully costed submissions on a range of retention issues that have been accepted with no feedback. We are trying to be constructive.

Regarding the programme management office, I will correct myself somewhat in respect of it being disbanded. It just has not been staffed. Covid came at that and the joint task force was set up. There was a bit of flux where it had not been staffed. Therefore, the projects might be progressing.

The question about the working time directive concerned legal action. We spoke briefly about the working time directive and how much of a fundamental issue it is for all our members. The key point is that if we do not record our time, how do we know how many hours we are working? We must self record. We have carried out many studies with our members over a four- and six-month period. Some of the hours people are working are mind-boggling. We are talking about 60, 70 or 80 hours in some cases. When we look at the amount of time members of the Naval Service spend away from their families, it is nowhere near and cannot be in compliance for sea-going personnel. We have tried to get engagement on the working time directive. An Garda Síochána was successful in getting engagement between its management and its representative associations. What it has in place is something called the Westmanstown working time agreement. It is now in compliance with the working time directive and it has not resulted in a loss of operational capability. However, we have not even been engaged with yet.

I am not 100% sure regarding the supplementary budget but I know it is a mechanism that is there to be used. From a cursory glimpse at An Garda Síochána's Supplementary Estimate, I know that over time, this is something that is paid out of a Supplementary Estimate. We cannot even begin to think about claiming overtime until we know how many hours we are recording. The fact we cannot record our hours 11 years after the European Court of Justice found the State to be in breach with regard to the Defence Forces is not acceptable anymore. This is why we have had to resort to legal action. I will not comment on the ins and outs of legal proceedings in case I do something silly.

To sum up, I said that we do not want to be pessimistic and are all about solutions. There are solutions here for the Defence Forces. We can easily provide for a post-2013 supplementary pension provision or some mechanism to bridge the gap between forced early retirement and access to the State pension. If it can be done for someone aged 65 to 66, why can it not be done for someone aged 60 to 66? Why treat the Defence Forces differently? If public servants can work to 70 but the Government will not allow Defence Forces personnel to work to 70, it must compensate them. That is what the then Taoiseach, Deputy Varadkar, told us in a meeting. He said the Government imposed the restrictions on us, so it has to compensate us. We were advised by the Department of Defence to make a submission to the Pensions Commission, which is supposed to report tomorrow. We are aware also that military management made a very comprehensive submission on the reinstatement of the supplementary pension provision for our members. We really hope these submissions are taken at face value and there is some movement because certainty is something that is lacking in the Defence Forces regarding posting and the future. It is not only for officers. We have heard about the post-1994 contract issues. People waiting to get to the top are going to leave before they reach it.