Dr. Micheál Collins:

I will briefly come in on those points. The issue raised by the Deputy with regard to basic income sort of chimes with the remarks.of Deputy Aindrias Moynihan. Both Deputies' questions relate to the welfare system and its effectiveness. Ultimately, in terms of the living standards of the vast majority of people we are discussing, it is the welfare system rather than the tax system, and certainly rather than the tax breaks in the tax system, that has the significant impact on the living standards of individuals, echoing the two issues raised by the Deputy.

Overall, that speaks to a point around the distributive profile of many of these tax breaks; that is, to whom does the benefit flow. It comes back to the point raised by Deputy Canney that the more information we have on such issues and the greater clarity that is available to the committee and others, the more we can think about whether they are good outcomes or there are better ways through which those resources could be targeted and used. It is not unusual for those involved in these discussions, particularly public representatives in the context of pensions and so on, to know from their own work that the action in terms of living standards is through the welfare system and through supporting individuals.

On the broader basic income issue, one of the great problems we have had - it is beginning to change slowly and Covid-19 has helped - is that we have separate taxation and welfare systems. Deputies will know from dealing with constituents that in people's lives they work together and come together to provide the living standards for people and families. Administratively, they have been separate. The closer they come to each other, the better because it is from the two systems operating simultaneously that the living standards of people are derived. There is strong merit in further integrating the taxation and social welfare systems. The combination of these systems leads to the living standards of individuals but, administratively, they are structured differently. The Department of Social Protection does one thing and the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance do something else. In reality they come together for individuals and their living standards. The more integrated those systems are, the better the policy system will be at responding to the needs of individuals.

Ultimately, much of what committee members are pointing at relates to issues around welfare rather than taxation. I suppose it comes back to the point that we can realistically expect that a large chunk of the current taxation flowing into the Department of Finance every year will not be flowing in the years to come. It will take some time for the corporate tax issues to change and it will take some time for the environment-related taxes to change. Change they will and, as they do so, it will throw up interesting questions about how we use our current resources and where we may raise additional resources from. That points to tax expenditure questions being more pronounced and interesting. I would have thought that, as both of us have indicated, there is potential for changes which would simultaneously enhance revenue and fairness.