Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I welcome all our guests and thank them for their presentations. It was very interesting to listen to all the viewpoints. I will start with Dr. Lunn, whose contribution was fascinating. I have heard him on the radio a number of times. The information he relays to us says a great deal about the Irish people. It is a credit to the vast majority of them. There is no doubt that the behaviour of the Irish people has saved thousands of lives. Everyone, in fairness, can take a bow for that. The purpose of today's meeting is to look back and then look forward. It is to look back and see how things went for us, take the lessons from that and try to implement them in the future if, God forbid, we are ever in the same situation again.

I have a few questions. Dr. Lunn made the point that at the outset the vast majority of the public were on message, which was, basically, that we were in the midst of a pandemic, none of us had been in that situation previously and everyone was doing what they were advised to do. However, with the passage of time perhaps that waned a little and led to some to the areas of concern that are being discussed here. Professor Fennell touched on some of those. I have a question for Professor Fennell relating to her contribution. She said that some groups were disproportionately affected. Will she elaborate a little further on that? She made the point, with which I agree, that the messaging is vital. Mr. Herrick made this point in his contribution as well. It is key that people understand fully what is being asked and expected of them. Mr. Herrick made the suggestion of an Oireachtas committee to oversee matters of that nature. That would be a good idea and I very much welcome it.

With regard to the Garda, I extend my gratitude to the members of the Garda Síochána and I ask Ms McMahon and Ms Cunningham to relay my gratitude and the gratitude of many people for the role gardaí played during the pandemic. The feedback I have received from the general public has been very positive about the role played by gardaí and the four Es when they met people. In many ways the bond between the Garda Síochána and the public is stronger now, post the pandemic, than it has ever been. That is a strong statement to make. It has been a massively positive experience. Meeting people in a non-confrontational manner at Garda checkpoints initially, having a chat with them and then advising them on what the regulations were went down very well and I received a lot of positive feedback in that regard. Unfortunately, when there was lack of clarity in the messaging the gardaí were the people who were on the front line. That was very disappointing and we have to learn a lesson from that.

Ms Cunningham spoke about how she felt that the members she and her organisation represent were put in a precarious position. Basically, reams and piles of regulations and legislation were thrown at them and they were more or less told just to get on with it. They had to digest it themselves first and then pass the message down to the members. That was not simple, and I compliment them on the manner in which they did it. What lessons did the Garda take from its on-the-ground experience during the pandemic? What recommendations or changes would the Garda make for the future generally?

Mr. Herrick made a very good point in his last contribution regarding the confusion among the public at present, and I fully agree with him. That brings me back to the word "messaging" again and the importance of the Government speaking clearly to the public, for example, with regard to outdoor dining at present. The current situation whereby gardaí are being told by the Garda Commissioner and the Department of Justice that an individual garda can use his or her discretion when it comes to policing the consumption of alcohol in an area that is not licensed is very unfair. First, it is unfair to the licence holder, be it a publican or a restaurateur, that there is such a lack of clarity. If I am a publican and I open my business this evening and I am serving food and a glass of wine or a glass of beer to somebody in a public area that is now being used by me for serving alcohol and food, a garda could walk down the street, close my business and tell me that I am breaking the law. That is unfair on businesses that have been through so much. Second, it is very unfair to the garda concerned as well. It puts him or her in an awful position because one garda's definition or understanding of discretion could differ completely from another's.

I would like the deputy commissioner to bring back the message, and the Government must listen as well, that as far as I am concerned there must be clarity on this because it is putting everyone in an awful position. It is unfair to businesses that have been through so much for so long. Even for members of the public who have been hemmed in for the last 18 months and who are going out to have a bite to eat and one or two glasses of wine or beer, to be confronted by a member of the Garda Síochána regarding illegal activity in situations such as that is clearly not good enough. Clarity is needed, and sooner rather than later.