Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

In response to the point Deputy O'Rourke made, which is understandable, the programme for Government was very clear that we are now setting a much higher ambition than was envisaged in the climate plan that I set in 2019. The latter, as the committee will know, envisaged 1 million electric vehicles on the road, 500,000 homes being retrofitted, 600,000 electric heaters and so on. We are now talking about a much more radical ambition and it would be quite unrealistic to think that that enhanced ambition could be delivered in year one. The programme for Government was very clear that in the first five years we need to initiate a number of measures that will start to bear fruit only in the latter part of the decade and beyond. I absolutely agree with the formulation the Minister of State has now set out. We have to hit the 51% target by 2030, but it would be quite unrealistic to think we could deliver 7% each and every year. Even last year, with all the disruption, 7% was, I think, barely achieved. We are now embarking on a much more ambitious road but we need new policy measures to achieve this and they will not be delivered overnight. I have seen letters suggesting that this Bill should enshrine 7% each and every year. That is simply not practical. It would not be practical for us as practising politicians. I am not talking in party political terms. None of us would not be able to agree that.

The other point I wish to take up is Deputy Michael Healy-Rae's point as to how we will measure emissions. I know Deputy Healy-Rae would love to say all the existing hedges should see the farmer get a credit, but the reality is that we are in huge deficit on our climate commitments. Therefore, if we are to give credit, it has to be to farmers who do new things to sequester. There will not be credit for, if you like, the legacy element of what is going on on the farm. It is new initiatives that we should seek to reward in order that if a farmer undertakes some initiative on his farm, which could involve dealing with and strengthening hedgerows and so on, that is what has to be rewarded.

We cannot, as a community, say we are going to pretend we are doing much better than we are and pay ourselves for things when we are already in deficit.

A point that is more for the Minister of State is that if one was to measure land use overall, Ireland would be in aggregate deficit. Talking about net emissions will not cure this problem because in that regard we are minus 4 million tonnes on land use. We need to start rewarding people who make changes in their land use rather than pretending they have to make changes to get that minus 4 million tonnes up to zero and only after that will we be in the business of awarding credits. That is key to resolving the concerns expressed by Deputy Michael Healy-Rae and getting a workable policy. It is an area the Minister and Minister of State need to explore in terms of how we can find ways of rewarding new sequestration rather than people thinking they should get credit for something their father may have done 100 years ago.