Mr. Seán O'Donoghue:

I will respond first on behalf of the four producer organisations. Deputy Mac Lochlainn asked very pertinent questions about the Bill applying penalty points to masters or skippers, as we would know them, of fishing vessels in addition to the owners. I must say this at the outset. The industry has been accused of going after these things as a delaying tactic. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have always accepted that there is an onus on Ireland under EU law to have penalty points in place for both the owners of fishing vessels and for the skippers of fishing vessels. We have ended up in this mess because the Minister and his predecessors have ignored what we have tried to tell them.

The four producer organisations made four proposals on the previous penalty points for owners over the years. Unfortunately, the Minister has now copied and pasted all those provisions which are anathema to us and need to be addressed. Before I deal with the specific issue of the burden of proof, it is important for the committee to be aware that the Minister this time around under the EU regulation has considerable latitude in how he implements penalty points for serious infringements of the Common Fisheries Policy for masters of vessels. He did not have the same latitude for owners but he does have it here. Based on the heads of the Bill, he has seen fit not to do that and we are really mirroring what is there as such.

Regarding the burden of proof, the Supreme Court already found that there is no impediment to having beyond reasonable doubt for this. Unfortunately, the Minister has included provision for the balance of probabilities, ignoring that if the master or skipper gets a significant number of penalty points, his livelihood will be taken away from him forever and a day. He can no longer be a skipper of a fishing vessel. If someone's livelihood is being taken away, it must be beyond a reasonable doubt.

That brings me to a ridiculous point in the Bill. The skipper may only appeal to the High Court on a point of law. Given that his livelihood could be taken away, it is not fair and equitable. To rub salt in the wound really, even if he is successful on the point of law in the High Court, the penalty points still apply to his licence. It is hard to imagine telling someone who challenged a speeding offence in the courts and won the case that the person would still have the penalty points applied to his or her licence for the three years. This does not stack up in any democracy and needs to be changed.

The other point the Deputy mentioned is very relevant here. The Bill, as it stands, and the EU legislation only apply to EU-flagged vessels. In the new scenario with Brexit, all the Irish vessels, as they have done for decades, will be fishing alongside their UK counterparts.

We will be subject to penalty points and they will not, as such. Just in case anybody is suggesting there are other measures for UK vessels, that does not stack up because the penalty points are being invoked in addition to the other measures, as such. The cornerstone of the control regulation is being thrown out the door with this Bill, and if there are to be penalty points for a skipper, we must have a level playing field for fishermen who are fishing in the same fishing grounds.

The Minister has repeatedly said, including at a recent committee meeting, that allowing an appeal to the High Court or not taking off the penalty points was delaying the system. That is totally inaccurate. From the very beginning, going back a number of years, we have said we fully accept that if somebody gets penalty points, those points stay on the licence or the master's registration until a case is successfully taken in the High Court. The penalty points would then be removed but not before that. There can be no excuse for not implementing this immediately.

I hope I have covered the Deputy's questions. We have also set out the situation in our opening statement.