Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Tuesday, 27 April 2021

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach

Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Chief State Solicitor's Office (Revised)

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

In his later remarks to the meeting, the Taoiseach mentioned he supported the increase in the salary of €82,000, and he gave the reasons for that. This has nothing to do with the individual concerned; it has to do with the issue of transparency. In October 2019, the Government was specifically asked by the Public Service Pay Commission to consider re-establishing a special review body similar to that which had reported in 2007. The Department at that time was arguing that the then pay rates were determined on an ad hocbasis, similar to what happened on this occasion. If we bear in mind how that €82,000 was reached and the decision that was made on it, and I do not know the background to it, there were other employees within the HSE who were refused increases and increases were withheld from them. It would appear report No. 42 was overlooked and that it did not deal with the matter, the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No. 2) Act 2009 was not considered and, as a result, there are still a significant number of retired staff and others who are continuing to work in the HSE who are battling for pay increases that they were due. The Taoiseach might compare this to the process the Army and the Defence Forces are going through to have their pay and conditions examined.

The Taoiseach can understand why there would be anger and upset over the decision that was so easily reached about the Secretary General of the Department of Health. In Mr. Fraser's reply, he was explaining how these appointments and transfers were made. He said it is usually dealt with by the use of an oral procedure to protect the integrity and confidentiality of the appointments process, and that it was usually dealt with at the end, as a last item on the agenda of Government business. This is what the members and I are asking about: the transparency of the process, where the €82,000 figure came from and the issues that are relevant to that increase, to do with other workers within the HSE, who did not get their increases when it was reported that they should, and who continue to fight for them.

I put it to the Taoiseach that giving someone a huge increase in their salary does not necessarily mean that projects like the children's hospital are going to come in within budget or, indeed, that all of the other ills of the Departments and the overspends that are recorded by the Comptroller and Auditor General are going to end. I have not seen a massive improvement in the context of the clients of the HSE who are looking for their services to improve. I have seen huge commitment from the front line but I have seen the waiting lists grow and grow. It is similar with regard to the reforms that were necessary in the Garda. We have not seen much of those either, despite the fact we gave the increases. Giving someone an increase does not always necessarily mean they are going to transform and reform, as the Taoiseach suggested.

It is important we know the process by which the initial temporary appointment was made and the process by which the salary increase of €82,000 was reached. In addition, what it was benchmarked against is very important for us to consider. I would again ask the Taoiseach to review the correspondence we have received and to come back to us then with his views on matters, to see if they have changed in any way.

I want to turn to the Estimates, in particular the Estimates in regard to the tribunals. Deputy Tóibín went through some of these figures already. They have cost the State considerable amounts of money. I wonder if it is the intention of the Government to review all of these costs and the outcomes to date, with a view to amending legislation or dealing with this ongoing cost, which is like a runaway train that cannot be stopped. What is the Taoiseach's view on that?

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