Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Monday, 19 April 2021

Seanad Committee on the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union

New and Future Relationship Between the UK and Ireland: Discussion

Mr. Dáithí O'Ceallaigh:

I will begin with the issue of corporation tax and digital tax. As a background, the committee might bear in mind that the new US President takes a very different view from that of the former US President. We are facing changes to corporation tax and to the manner in which it is dealt with worldwide, and certainly within the OECD, which is where it seems the changes will occur. As the committee will be aware, attempts have been made by the EU over the years to make changes to the corporation tax rate, the manner in which such issues are handled and so on. The attempts did not make it through, partly because of opposition from us but also because of opposition from others, including the UK.

I believe that the US has returned to the OECD and that the work of the OECD has gone some way forward.

In addition, with the specific proposals made by the US President, Mr. Biden, last week on taxing American corporations which are operating abroad, I think we are facing changes in the worldwide attitude to corporate tax. The latter has been an important element in attracting inward investment to Ireland and it remains an important element in attracting people. However, it is by no means the only one. Over the past 50 years or so, this country has built up extraordinary expertise in various areas, including pharmaceuticals, financial services and legal services relating to sectors such as aircraft leasing. There is great expertise in this country. Youngsters are going through school and university against a background of knowing what the people before them have achieved. This means that if there are changes in the corporate tax area, it may be difficult but I do not believe it will necessarily be as difficult as people might think.

I also believe that changes are coming in the context of a digital tax. It is difficult to argue that if Google earns €1 billion in France, it should pay no tax in France and pay only a modicum of tax in Ireland. If I were a Frenchman, I would be unhappy with that. We are coming to a stage where companies that earn money in specific countries will be expected to pay some of their tax in those countries.

Are we doing enough? We are a small country with a population of 5 million. We can only do so much. The UK was able to do a great deal more than we were. First, it was a far bigger country. Second, the UK had built up assets over the centuries from international trade, slavery or whatever we like to call it. There were vast assets in the UK that did not exist in this country. When I was growing up this country was exceeding poor. We are not poor now and we have many assets now. However, we are still relatively small in numbers. When we look at the size of the country and what we do internationally, in Brussels and so on, I take heart rather than anything else. There is always more we can do but I take heart from that.

One area where we have not been particularly successful, and where I would like to see us be far more successful, is in getting our people into the Commission. We were very good in the old days. For example, two of the Secretaries General of the Commission have been Irish, namely, Catherine Day and David O'Sullivan. We had Irish civil servants or Irish people in senior positions within the Commission. That is no longer true. We are not necessarily particularly good at languages, which is understandable because we are an island way out in the western world. Yet, we should find some way, as the French do, of encouraging people in industry and in the Civil Service - all manner of individuals - to put themselves into the Commission and learn other languages. Then we should welcome them back when they return to Ireland. In some ways, one group that is exceedingly good at putting its people into international organisations, getting them to learn a great deal from those organisations and then bringing them back is the Defence Forces. We could take a letter out of their book at the manner in which they try to encourage their people to get into international organisations and then return to the Defence Forces and bring experience back.

We should be trying to do the same with the Commission. However, that is only a small matter. A major issue relates to languages. We really need to try to engage a bit more in French and particularly in German. Did I answer all the Chairman's questions?

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