Mr. David Dodd:

I thank the Senator and appreciate the question. That highlights one of the major differences with Bessborough compared to other sites. I want to explain this to the committee because it is important. What may be right for one site like Tuam is different from what may be right for another site like Bessborough. The immediate problem faced by survivors of Bessborough is that, next week, there is an expedited hearing before An Bord Pleanála, where the owner of the lands, the developer, as he is fully entitled to do, will apply to put apartment blocks on Bessborough. Two of those apartment blocks will be placed exactly where the OSI, which is the State’s expert mapping body, has identified the children's burial ground.

That identification is based on an original map from 1949. On 3, 4, 6 and 7 October 1949, a senior mapper from the OSI attended Bessborough and he drew a very detailed specialist map in accordance with the mapping rules. In accordance with the rules, a senior adviser then went out. His name was Mr. B. J. O’Rourke and he was there on 26 and 27 January 1950. The data from the commission and the evidence is that many of the children's deaths happened before 1959 and there was a significant level of deaths in the decade before that - a very significant proportion of the 900. He is there on-site and he draws in “Children's Burial Ground”. He uses various notations which are important for mappers. He uses up and down script and he capitalises it, so it is Children with a capital C, Burial with a capital B and Ground with a capital G. He is very definitely indicating the location of the children's burial ground.

Next week, there is a planning application which is going to put an apartment block on the children's burial ground. Whether anyone's personal view is memorialisation or exhumation, if there is an apartment block there, neither is going to happen, so that is an immediate pressing concern, perhaps not for this committee but for our members. That is the context we are coming from.

I want to read out quotes from the ladies I met two nights ago, when we held a meeting with the members to get their views. What they want is really understandable and not complicated, so I will use their words. One said: “We want somewhere to go to remember our children and siblings, to go up, sit on a bench, lay a flower, have a moment.” Another lady said: “Bring flowers, say a prayer, talk to them, talk, sit down. This is the way it should be in Cork.” That is what they said to me two nights ago. These are very deep and understandable human feelings about the children they have given birth to and who died. They do not know where to go to commemorate their loss or the loss of siblings. These are very simple wishes which should be respected.

There is a huge amount of engagement that was done so that survivors are listened to. It is very hard to look a survivor in the face and say they are being listened to when there is going to be an apartment block built on the children's burial ground, and the OSI, which is the completely independent State mapper, staffed by former members of the Defence Forces, all of whom are expert members, is saying to the survivors that this is where the children's burial ground is.