Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I will begin by offering some thoughts on the debt issues raised by Deputy Boyd Barrett. Most of the figures he referenced in regard to the debt forecast are correct. By the end of last year, our debt stood at €219 billion, which is an increase of approximately €15 billion versus what we estimated it would be. Taking the two year period of last year and this year together, there will be an increase in our national debt of €33 billion. We are seeing a very considerable increase in our national debt, albeit an increase in the stock of our debt that is in line with what we are seeing happening in other countries. This is additional debt which we have been able to refinance at a next to zero interest rates due to the manner in which we have managed our public finances and the work of the European Central Bank.

Deputy Boyd Barrett asked if we need to take a different approach to Covid. We have to be open to all debates and points of view in regard to what we are doing and not dismiss each other's point of view out of hand, which Deputy Boyd Barrett rarely does on important issues and I do not propose to do so now. I will offer three points that matter to me in relation to the points the Deputy made.

First, the Deputy spoke about the need to reduce radically the presence of the disease within our country and its transmission. That is what we are trying to do. As a country, we have taken the most extraordinary measures over the past year to do that. Second, the Deputy seemed to suggest we should go beyond that and have a target of zero Covid. As I understand it, zero Covid is defined by some people as zero community transmission for 14 days consecutively. When community transmission was at its lowest level, we did not get to that point. Third, if we were to set that objective, it would require public health measures that would stretch beyond what we are proposing to do in regard to travel and borders within our country because the origin of much of this disease is community transmission as opposed to travel. It would require very significant and sustained measures in terms of the contact we have with each other, our society and how we organise movement within our country that would stretch beyond how we manage travel.

I would like to make a further point genuinely to the Deputy who I know is raising this point genuinely. I have heard him speak eloquently about the personal and social consequences of demanding public health measures. It is at least implicit, if not likely, in the approach he is suggesting that those public health measures would be of greater severity for longer periods. That is a factor in evaluating the case the Deputy puts forward. As demanding as the management of mobility in and out of the country is - the Deputy will know that travel accounts for less than 0.5% of recorded Covid cases over the past number of weeks - far more would be required to deliver zero Covid. If that is what the Deputy is looking for, even stronger measures will be required in regard to travel. It is important to outline what those measures are and what effects they would have on our society and the well-being of many people about whom I know the Deputy is concerned, which is why he raised this issue.