Mr. Éamonn Donnelly:

I have several observations. Members may have read in The Sunday Business Post the week before last about the director general's announcement of a targeted redundancy for managers. That throws everything into the mix. As an advocate of workforce planning I say that if that is what is required, that is what we will deal with. However, there must be some analysis of whether this is the right fit before we make sweeping statements. This is what I keep saying.

If members wish to consider this after our session I would draw their attention to the HSE staff census in 2009, when we were really bankrupt. The reason there has been a 23% or 24% increase in the number of managers is that those roles faced the biggest cull at that time. The proportionate increase is from a much lower base. Moreover, a redundancy package was part of that cull. That one crude instrument removed a pile of corporate knowledge. Then people wondered where the knowledge had gone. The result was that people were rehired on a consultancy basis into positions that had been deemed fit for redundancy. This caused a bigger spend. That is not right. I am all for embracing the problem. If people think we are awash with managers, let us analyse it and have an adult conversation about it. We cannot proceed on the mere statement that the number has increased by 24%. There is a deeper-rooted history to that.

Secondly, if the Senator is talking about increasing the workforce I agree with him. The fact of the matter, however, is that we have a bigger population. It is getting older.