Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

We have not got answers. I take Deputy McLoughlin's point. I just want to correct an issue and that is why I interjected. The Minister of State himself, in a response to Parliamentary Question No. 98 of 27 March 2019, outlined specifically the savings, gross and net. My interpretation of that is clear. It is the net surrender to the Exchequer. In 2014, the gross savings were €27.9 million. The net surrender to the Exchequer was €13.6 million. In 2015, it was €28.7 million gross and €13.7 million net. In 2016, it was €31.1 million gross. It was €26.6 million net. In 2017, it was €20 million gross. It was €21.4 million net. In 2018, it was €29.4 million gross and it was €17 million net.

On the net surrender to the Exchequer, according to the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, "The Gross Savings and the Net [savings] in the Table include amounts used to meet the shortfalls in the Army Pensions Vote." I just want to be clear that when I and others are asking a question about the net savings to the Exchequer and others, we are quoting to the Minister of State his record in the Official Report of the Dáil. If the Official Report of the Dáil is incorrect and the details have been incorrectly supplied to the Department, the Minister of State should clarify that. We can only deal with the information the Minister of State gives us. For the record, that is important. What one has here with the Army Pensions Vote is the Minister of State discussing and negotiating with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, about funding the exodus. That is the basis of this.

To respond to the Minister of State on the issue of Fianna Fáil, the policy of the Fianna Fáil Party is to establish an independent pay review body. It was something my colleague, Deputy Cowen, included in the negotiations with Deputy Donohoe as part of the recent budgetary negotiations. It was dismissed absolutely by Deputy Donohoe.

It is interesting that Fine Gael seems to have a two-faced approach to this policy idea because in the Dáil and at committee, the Minister of State is dismissing it but in an interview with a Cork newspaper, Senator Colm Burke was promoting the idea of an independent pay review body as something the Senator would fight for. That seemed to be his commitment to the people of Cork North-Central. Is there one policy in Cork and another in Dublin, one policy in the Department and another in Fine Gael, because there is a total contradiction around this issue? Perhaps the Minister of State can clarify that. Let me be clear that my party's commitment in terms of our policy - the Minister of State will not tell me my policy - is to establish an independent pay review body. That is something we believe will end the exodus the Minister of State continues to preside over, end the difficulties around morale, end the necessity to fund a Supplementary Estimate for the Army pensions Vote every year because the numbers are rocketing out the door and will end the ongoing collapse we are seeing in the Naval Service, the Air Corps and Army. That is our commitment.

Our role now is to hold the Minister of State to account on the ongoing difficulties of departmental policy. When we are giving information, we are simply providing the information the Minister of State gave to the Dáil.