Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The Deputy knows that this is a demand-led scheme. At the start of the year, we look at how many people have to retire on age grounds or whatever and try to predict an average figure for how many others might retire. Since it varies from year to year, we cannot put a definitive number on how many will retire. Of course this is disappointing. I would be the first to say I was disappointed to see this number retiring. I would like to see it being lower. I addressed some of the issues relating to recruitment and retention in my earlier meeting. Included in the figure for those who are leaving are people who might only have spent five hours in the Defence Forces, those who come in for their first day and say that it is not for them or not what they expected it to be. Their number distorts the overall exit figure.

There is a natural turnover of people who we know will retire and we must predict an average figure for the number we think might retire. The latter has been higher in recent years, but not everyone who leaves does so on a pension. Only a specific number do that. Some people tell me that they have been offered jobs in the private sector and they will leave the Defence Forces because they have their pensions. That is attractive for some; there is no use in saying otherwise. Some people join the Defence Forces knowing that they will not spend all of their lives there. They do not want to, and it would be wrong of me to say that we want them to. Some people join, get the experience for 12, 15 or 20 years - officers spend 12, 13 or 15 years there and enlisted personnel spend 21 years or whatever - and can then leave on their pensions and do something else in their lives. We see the same in the private sector, with people moving from job to job. The Defence Forces are no different from any other organisation and have people who want to take a different direction in their lives.

I would love to see fewer people exiting, but we are in a strong and buoyant economy. People have greater opportunities now to move from employer to employer or career to career than they did back when fewer were leaving the Defence Forces. They get fabulous training and educational opportunities within the Defence Forces. That is a part of life in the Defence Forces. They are able to build careers for themselves and acquire the necessary skill sets to leave for the private sector. Naysayers talk about why they left, but they often forget that the Defence Forces equipped them with what they needed to join the private sector.

I have increased the budgetary allocation for pensions under Vote 35. If members check the record of my 2016 appearance before this committee, they will see that I stated that I wanted to correct the shortfall in that budget, as it would have been wrong of me to just keep going back to the Exchequer year on year looking for large amounts of money. I have delivered significant increases under Vote 35 in recent years. That is why we are now seeking just 0.8% for this year.

The Deputy referred to pay savings. I will make no apologies for using the pay savings for investing. We are facing a large challenge. We do not have the 9,500 personnel that we should, but we have the budget for that number. Does the Deputy want me to revert to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, and hand back a pay saving of X%?