Ms Catriona Crowe:

I thank Senator Gallagher. It is mysterious. The ostensible motivation would be presumably to protect the names of people who were accused but not convicted that may show up in some of the statements made by our eloquent friends here. That is a matter that is easily dealt with by redaction. It is not a problem. It should not put anyone out.

A more sinister interpretation would be, and Dr. Buckley made the point earlier on, that the overwhelming majority of those who went into these institutions were poor. I do not want to get into a long discussion about class in Ireland but it is of interest that a certain cohort of citizens can be dealt with differently from everybody else. That is sinister. We have archival legislation that is perfectly adequate, as I think we have all demonstrated this morning to the committee, to deal with this matter sensitively and appropriately. Why do we need something new for a particular cohort of citizens?

It is also likely that this is paving the way for this Bill, if it becomes and Act, which I sincerely hope it does not, to become a way of dealing with other similar kinds of records. The one that is most evident at present is the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes and Certain Related Matters, which represents the same kind of survivors and the same kind of need for people to see their records.

It would be lovely if we could just flip this. What is wrong with this country that we cannot understand the eloquent statements of the sort that we have just heard from Ms Molloy and Dr. Lodato about what happened to people and make them the centre of our law-making? Why are we constantly coming up against situations where ordinary citizens are treated badly and they must go through hell and high water to get redress for the problems they have?

Surely these people here should be at the centre of what we are doing about this extraordinary period in our history. There is an atrocious record of treatment of children and woman at a certain time. Can they not be put at the centre of this? If they were, we would be seriously listening to them, consulting them far more than the derisory level of consultation that has taken place by the Department to date, and taking on board what they say their needs are. There are ways of protecting people. There are ways of giving them everything that they require. It seems unbelievable that we are still at the stage where we cannot say, "Of course, you can have your records."