David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

That is the point. Surely there is an obligation. Take the HSE for example. Some of these are section 39 organisations which have service level agreements to provide certain services. Separately from that, if a charity was not such an organisation, it would be a charity that would be audited independently and an external audit would have to be done. There is, however, an element of an audit for the moneys paid by the State to these organisations. Given we have had problems with some of the section 39 organisations - I will not go through them all but I believe there was a difficulty in Harold's Cross and elsewhere - I would be surprised if at no point has the HSE or any other body approached the regulator to say it is coming across these problems and here is how those organisations were able to evade responsibility and accountability. Going back to what Ms Martin said earlier, 2019 to 2021 is supposed to be about strengthening public trust and confidence in charities and looking at ways in which the charity sector can provide the trust that people need. Part of that would be that the regulator learns lessons. Whatever about any mistakes that are made, if we are not learning lessons there is a problem. How is it the case that through all these scandals, and I gave two examples, that Ms Martin cannot tell me today she is clear that none of the organisations, whether the HSE or otherwise, has at any point alerted the regulator to any of the problems? It is no good for Ms Martin to read about any of this in the newspaper or hearing it on the news. What good is that to her organisation?