Mr. Paul Bell:

I will speak from my experience this year. We have discussed how people are treated when working for the HSE or voluntary hospitals. Following on from the point the Vice Chairman raised, there is a new player on the field. When the HSE tried to resolve issues nationally with its employees, there was a continual intervention by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Some of the issues we now face, such as staff recruitment, the pressure of people getting posts, including promotional posts, and so on, it feeds back to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, which demands the final say because it is an expenditure issue. We found ourselves in a national dispute this year, as members will recall, whereby we had an agreement to deal with people's pay and conditions through an independent process. The obstruction was not the HSE per se or the Department of Health; rather, we found ourselves in a confrontation with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. With respect, the people responsible for the health service are the Department of Health and the HSE. We found ourselves to be in a continuously difficult position in that regard, and other groups have had a similar experience.