Ms Patricia King:

I will answer questions on the areas on which I touched and one or two colleagues might quickly deal with the other questions. The joint industrial council is a body that looks after day-to-day issues that may arise and may need a mandatory outcome in terms of a decision. They could be minor disciplinary issues. It has no role to play in the future of anything or in respect of any of the matters arising out of this issue, even regarding the pension scheme. It would not have the wherewithal or capacity to do that. I know that the Bord na Móna management understands that. In the beginning, we allowed a little time to see if this would seep into the system and we spent considerable time offline explaining what it would be about. The WRC is very clear that it was asked not to settle the dispute but to chair a forum. People have confidence in a chair from the WRC. This is the key element from our point of view of getting all the parties involved.

When someone's job is gone and the P45 has been issued, that person will no longer be a worker in Bord na Móna. We do not have much time to deal with this. We have to do this business while these people are employed in Bord na Móna. We have to get in there now to have those conversations if we are to have any chance of having replacement employment found for people. From that perspective, this is very important.

On the ESB element to which I referred, the ESB is not up at the gap and in the same place as Bord na Móna. By virtue of certain decisions which were made based on other exigencies, the ESB has contributed to timelines and so on that were expected to be longer than they are now. The ESB is a much bigger organisation and has a very different internal infrastructure for dealing with issues. However, it is not excluded from the just transition element. I expect that if this forum chaired by the WRC works correctly, the ESB could be included at an appropriate point.

I wish to dispel any notion that trade unions are not in favour of climate action. I do not know any members of whom that is true. In fact, we were trying to get across the message on climate change years ago, before it was popular to do so. All credit to the workers in Bord na Móna who, even though they know the ending of the production of fossil fuel means the end of their livelihood as it currently stands, have not posed any difficulty in that regard. However, they are depending on the Government, politicians and trade unions to deliver a just transition that is meaningful and not just a phrase that came from Paris or wherever. Based on what I have heard from the people to whom I have spoken, confidence is low in that regard.

Mr. Doyle might comment on the Spanish experience.