Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for their presentation.

Will they elaborate a little further on the breakdown of the betting tax yield between different sports?

It was stated on-course bookmakers are up 11.5% in first half of the year compared to 2018. The number has dropped substantially overall, however. I would say there are about 40% of what they were five or seven years ago. Are there figures for when on-course betting was at its peak?

I would like to get that figure because I was extremely concerned that the profession of on-course bookmakers was in terminal decline. I am pleasantly surprised to see the turnover is up by that much. That is a welcome development because our bookmaker is a key element of our day out and it brings a unique atmosphere to racing that one would not have with a Tote monopoly. On the greyhound racing side, on-course bookmakers have disappeared and it inevitably affects the night out and the banter that is there.

As has been said by other speakers, all the increased figures for horses in training and for active owners are extremely welcome. It is good to see the number of new owners up by virtually 10% as well. It is a healthy sign of the industry whose importance to the rural economy has been stressed. My local point-to-point race was on last Sunday and a horse was sold at that for a substantial sum. The same man who sold the horse might have another 20 horses and not get another golden handshake but that is what keeps that part of the industry alive and it is extremely important.

With Brexit, the UK will try to protect its industry. It can be said we are guilty of the same thing in Ireland. We have our own European Breeders Fund, EBF, sales races for horses from EBF registered stallions. If they start this in the UK and have confined races, we can take a bit of the blame ourselves in that we probably showed them a route to go in the way we were promoting our own sales and stallions. I am not being critical but we definitely did that. If we look at the national hunt, the UK consumer would get fairly browned off about only UK horses running. If the French and Irish-bred horses were taken out of it, they would make up the vast majority of the top performers on the UK racing circuit. While I could see it operating at a lower level such as the races in Sedgefield on a Tuesday or a Wednesday, I could not see it operating on a weekend circuit to have confined races for British thoroughbreds. Maybe that is only wishful thinking but people go racing to see good horses running. If there is to be discrimination against us, it will be done in another way to having confined races but we cannot ignore the threat of same. If the door was closed for export into the UK or if it was made harder for us, the only industry that would be affected as badly by Brexit would be our beef industry. The threat is huge.

On the proposed new all-weather track, the rumour is it would be in my county. I question this. We talk about the equine centre and money is a limited resource. Do we need a second all-weather track? I know the witnesses are saying we have a cohort of trainers in the Cork region who are travelling up to Dundalk for night meetings but do we fully utilise the Dundalk facility? I do not know how many of these tracks are in the UK. There are four, five or six and a few more have started in the recent past in the UK. We only have one meeting a week in Dundalk. Is it not possible on an all-weather track to have to two to three meetings per week? The infrastructure for the racegoer on some of our smaller tracks around the country is in urgent need of refurbishment. When HRI goes to the Government looking for money, its whole shopping list will not be catered for. Should a second all-weather track be at the top of the agenda? I am just asking the question for the sake of discussion. Thurles Racecourse is my local course and it definitely needs serious upgrading, as does Clonmel Racecourse. Those small rural tracks would have a huge appetite to soak up money for infrastructural improvements. As HRI said, they are the lifeblood of the industry in winter time. It is that rural racegoer who keeps those race meetings going. I know serious refurbishment is ongoing in Leopardstown Racecourse and huge money has been spent on The Curragh Racecourse. Those are the tracks that are catering for the festival meetings and all the rest but we have 26 tracks and if they were told grant aid was available, a lot of them would grab it with both hands. I would have to be convinced about the fact that a second all-weather track should be top of the list in looking for capital investment. I know it is rumoured it is coming to my county but even at that I would like to see the sums done and to see what else will be left waiting in the queue for investment if we put a significant amount of money into a second all-weather track. I know a good amount of investment was made in The Curragh Racecourse by people heavily involved in the industry. That was most welcome. It is a showpiece stand and for the home of our classics that is the way it should be. I would like to get into a debate about that matter. There is a huge amount of money to be spent on different aspects of the industry.

The witnesses have responded to Deputy Stanley about the funding. They said the punter should carry the cost of the betting tax. It might work in practice in a betting office but it will not work on-course. I know the witnesses said it should be taken out of the winnings. I remember a time when betting tax was at 6.5% or 7% and one could pay it on if one was betting on-course and if one did not pay it on it was taken out of the winnings. It definitely did not create consumer satisfaction. Punters have become used to betting in what they consider to be a tax-free zone. I would not worry too much about the bookmakers. They will be able to protect their bottom line and margins in the prices they give. The margin of the operator will be 110% or 115%. I would be slow to go down the route of asking the consumer to pay. It would meet serious resistance. I am not saying we should not try to increase the tax take but to apply it to the consumer would be a retrograde step. There would definitely be a serious kickback from punters who have grown accustomed to putting on their bet without having tax to pay. At one stage the betting tax was 20% in betting shops. We have definitely gone full circle from that but it would be hard to get consumers to buy back into that. I was on Newstalk this morning and another Member of the Oireachtas was arguing this money should be distributed through all sports in the Exchequer fund. That it is virtually self-generating at the moment helps the argument to keep it within Horse Racing Ireland and the greyhound racing industry. I would not agree with Mr. Kavanagh that applying it to consumers would be the way forward. That would be a retrograde step.