Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome our witnesses here this morning and thank them for their submissions. In general I would agree with Deputy Kelly's remarks on the legalities likely to emerge and the extent to which the courts could well be full of issues arising from this.

Mr. Redmond has evaluated how the clawback will or will not work. However, over the past few years has the Department carried out any audit directly to familiarise itself with the way the scheme has worked to date and the snags it threw up? Are its proposals based on what happened during that period? For example, I am sure we all know of several cases where the farmer's business had to be liquidated before payments could be made because, especially in the case of a long stay in a nursing home, the bills are colossal. In some cases that creates a problem if there happens to be a member of the farm or business family who has a disability, which imposes a double penalty on them. They have the problem of the disability and of an extraordinary bill that they cannot afford to pay other than by disposing of the assets and then there is a problem which falls back on the State eventually. The legalities of it in the way the Bill looks to be heading could well tie them up in such a way that there is no resolution. It could be passed onto the next generation or to the person who leases the property. I do not know how that is going to work out. I would be very worried because while there of course will be cases before the courts to determine how the legislation will work, that should not be unnecessary.

The first question I would like answered is the extent to which the Department has examined the way the scheme has worked to date, the snags it threw up and how they have been resolved. Not all cases are dealt with in the same fashion, some are dealt with more sympathetically than others, depending on who the person is dealing with. The important point at this stage is to realise that we are dealing with a vulnerable group of people in the very precarious situation of no longer being in control of a situation they had control of previously during their working lives.