Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for being here this morning.

Last February, when Mr. Pat Rabbitte, the chair of Tusla, was before this committee, he stated: "Tusla needs to be more transparent and there is no reason the agency should fear greater openness, which is not to say that, on occasion, there are very particular reasons for restraint." Last September, the CEO of Tusla, Mr. Gloster, gave an interview to The Irish Times, in which he stated: "Part of the solution will be bringing Tusla back to its core business - child protection, child welfare and family support." He repeated that point this morning. According to the same newspaper article, Mr. Gloster "wants to achieve a consistency of approach across Tusla services and across the country - an absence of which is repeatedly highlighted by health watchdog Hiqa." He also repeated that point this morning. I welcome both statements because we need to return to that position. In Galway, where I come from, only 15% of the children in question get the support of guardians ad litem, which is an issue we discussed earlier.

Deputy Neville raised the issue of outsourcing. I want to discuss the outsourcing of legal contracts and social workers. The witnesses have already answered many of my questions but I would like to understand the position regarding the transfer of social workers into Tusla. Only 3% of staff were recruited in recent years and most of the work has been outsourced to agency staff at a huge cost. The reason people choose agency work as opposed to working for Tusla is the high caseload Tusla staff have to manage. As part of the arrangements being put in place, what is the maximum caseload that one would expect a social worker working for Tusla to manage? From my research, I understand caseload is the defining issue.

I have a copy of a document titled, Spending Review 2019 - Tusla: Assessment of Performance Measurement, which was prepared by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Under the heading "legal", the document notes that 9.25 staff work in the legal department. Deputy Sherlock asked how much it costs to provide guardians ad litemand Mr. Gloster indicated the cost was €16 million. At the same time, from 2014 to 2019, legal fees associated with guardians ad litemamounted to €83 million. Is that figure included in or additional to the €16 million cost per annum? From 2014 to 2019, other outsourcing of legal fees amounted to €93 million on top of the cost associated with guardians ad litem.

There is a major shortfall in legal expertise in Tusla. What plans does Tusla have to recruit legal experts and have its own legal department as opposed to continuously outsourcing?