Mr. Martin Varley:

I know that, and I was not suggesting it either. I was prefacing what I was going to say in case I was misinterpreted. We have probably layered up management and administration by default over a series of reconfigurations and policy changes and by virtue of the fact that a proper effort was not made to determine how the service could be restructured possibly. We could point to the change from the health boards to the HSE. By the way, Deputy Durkan, the IHCA did not seek that. In our most recent documents, we have encouraged an integration into regional areas where hospitals and community services would be put together. Our main ask therein is for one streamlined team and one budget, for community services and hospitals to work together and for bureaucracy to be delayered. This is not intended as a criticism of anyone who is in administration or management, but we have six administrative or management personnel for every consultant. That is too high by international standards. The fault rests with the failure to restructure, not the individuals. The individuals probably do a very good job but, given the significant change in IT services, some of those functions and jobs may need to be redeveloped such that we would have less administration and less management. This is where we can work together. We can spend the money we have better, though. There is no doubt about that.