Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Wait a second now. I know the witness is anxious to give replies but tarry a little. We will wait and see. The then Minister for Health, Senator James Reilly, was named as the culprit in 2012. I am not certain as to whether any suggestion was made by the Irish Hospital Consultants Association as to how best that particular situation could be handled. Most of the country was broke, serious cuts were coming down the track, GPs had to make sacrifices and to accept cuts, judges had make sacrifices and to accept cuts, as did everybody right across the board. Nobody liked it and nobody wanted to do it but the then Minister for Health did not go out at that time and decide "I am going to punish the consultants, reduce their incomes and render them worthless". There is a danger here. I will not go along the path of my colleague, Deputy Alan Kelly, but he made the point that one can over-politicise medicine also. It is not necessarily in the interests of the patient, the consultants or the system.

I have one more point, and the witnesses can answer all of them then. Reference has been made to the State Claims Agency and a dramatic increase in recent years of €184 million per year. That is not unique to the health services. The State Claims Agency in Ireland and its equivalent in other jurisdictions have had the same problem. I can get the figures on those if the witnesses wish. I am concerned that it is very easy to throw out the figures and say "Look, this is the cause of our problem and we need more money". Everybody needs more money. Has the Irish Hospital Consultants Associationconsidered how much more money consultants need to deliver the services that the witnesses say they need? I agree. Can the witnesses can tell me the amount of money they need? Is it €3 billion? Is it €4 billion? Is €10 billion or €20 billion?