John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Mr. Justice Hedigan has said that is his view on it or that is what is being said. I want to put my experience on record. As bad as the banks are, and I believe they are very bad, the vulture funds are even worse. One cannot get through to them by phone. One cannot speak to a human being at any stage during the course of this. It is almost impossible for the ordinary citizen of this State who wants to resolve his or her affairs to deal with a vulture fund. They are untouchable. I can give Mr. Justice Hedigan several examples of attempts that I made on behalf of people - not my constituents but generally throughout the country - to try to help them to resolve issues. The banks in some cases do not even tell the client that their loan is sold. The major problem we have is that the banks are outsourcing their dirty work and are allowing the vulture funds to appoint receivers and go to the courts for eviction orders. They are using the courts and the courts are not helpful to individuals who appear before them.

Recently, I was in the High Court with a family, and I have been there a number of times as well as to the Appeals Court, and it was shocking. I thought that it would be conducted in a far different way. For a friend or supporter of people who attend the court, even though it is moral support, to be denied any right of audience or any comment in an extremely difficult situation is something that judges should review. I am not saying this because Mr. Justice Hedigan is a retired judge and is here before us. It is a view that I have having examined and been present in the courts. It is not a recommendation I would make to any individual to go to court. I found it so disturbing for families how justice is administered, and I would have great concerns.

I would love to find a vehicle that was independent like the IBCB that would look at all the stakeholders. The IBCB has a firm on board with it from the commercial-legal end of things. The judges should be asked as well. Again, this is not just because this is Mr. Justice Hedigan's background, but I have seen cases where the paperwork from the banks has been appalling, and yet they will not admit it. They allow a lie to be compounded by another lie or misleading fact or whatever it is, and the citizen, who is relying, perhaps, on a McKenzie friend, has no advantage or support whatsoever. The banks use this for referring their cases to the courts and then they are almost forgotten about. The legal process, the solicitors and the barristers take their own course and the banks are sometimes not even familiar with it. They do not even know the hardship that they are dishing out to their own customers, customers who perhaps tried to settle their accounts or reach some settlement with the banks. Once it goes to court, they do not have the money. They are a beaten docket when they go to court and they are often beaten down by the banks that bully and harass them, and it is still going on.

I admire the work that Mr. Justice Hedigan is undertaking but he is in quite a pit of company that he would not normally work with, I would say.

That is why I go back to the issue of transparency and the cost of the operation. The judge said that when he was involved in Amnesty International, his motto was "as unthinkable as slavery". What is happening to Irish citizens is as unthinkable as slavery. The judge may think that is harsh, but I deal with it at the coalface every day and the culture that has been established and passed on to the next generation of bankers is shocking.

The vulture funds have hired young people who are learning the business. I sat in at a meeting with a vulture fund to make an appeal for a family and the young woman said, "You owe us X and we want it." The man was trying to explain his situation and settle, but she did not care from where he got the money, whether he had to ask his neighbour, friend, mother or father or the credit union. She just said, "We want money, money, money." I will never forget it. I thought not only was the culture out of control but that it was being passed on to a new generation of bankers.

When the bankers come here, they say with a great presentation of sincerity, "My God, we don't do business like that." They do. They are shocking and hate being called out, but they have not changed. I am not lecturing the judge about this, but it upsets me greatly when I see what they are still doing and I cannot get over the fact that they are still getting away with it. I understand how people are sceptical about the work the delegates are doing because of how the banks have infiltrated every place. I would like to hear the judge's view on some of my thoughts.

I have learned so much at this committee and it has been a steep learning curve. One of the things that shocked me at the beginning of the tracker mortgage crisis was that the Governor of the Central Bank told us that there were 3,800 affected. It turned out that there were more than 30,000. Some families have been treated so appallingly that they are broken. Some have special needs children and made special cases to us. They have had to pour out their hearts. They are the very people in the banks with whom the judge now finds himself dealing. I will not be going for a pint with them.