Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Tuesday, 24 September 2019

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Skills

Interim Report on Reduced Timetables: Minister for Education and Skills

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Deputy Ó Laoghaire spoke about anecdotal evidence, which I have covered. The Department is working on anecdotal evidence on this particular issue. I accept and agree with many of the recommendations in the guidelines, most of which came from the report. The Deputy referred to regulations versus guidelines. No matter what issue one is dealing with, it is usually, in the first instance, covered in guidelines and circulars that are given to schools. Once we have a system in place whereby Tusla is informed when a reduced timetable is being introduced, that information will be recorded and will form part of the data.

On the scale and nature of resources, the Deputy referred to reintegration, process and flexibility and there being no excuses as to how things were done in the past. I agree there is no excuse for allowing a situation to emerge where a child is being disadvantaged in his or her constitutional right to an education. That is an issue which we are all working to resolve. There is no specific sanction where a school is not complying in this regard but I intend to ensure we are informed as to the scale and extent of the resourcing need.

If extra resources are needed in these areas, we will certainly do that.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan observed that 27% of education and welfare officers were aware of schools using reduced timetables and highlighted an information deficit in that regard. She said a more robust collection of data was required. The Deputy spoke about parents' consent and an equal power relationship but I also talked about the voice of the child. She mentioned different groups having a different story, the importance of getting this right and the role of the inspectorate. The Deputy will be aware that the specific role of the inspectorate in the Department of Education and Skills is to examine the quality of learning and teaching. The inspectorate will continue, in the context of the work, to evaluate the effectiveness of schools' implementation of specific interventions and initiatives and to provide up-to-date information to the system. On the timeframe, the consultation period ends on 18 October.

Senator Gavan made a reference to one hour per day, which is unacceptable, and not having a plan as to how to reintegrate that student back into education. Data collection is key, and that is a gaping hole. We do not have those data and if the practice was and is being used as a behavioural tool, that is not acceptable.

I referenced the social inclusion pilot because the Senator also mentioned autism spectrum disorder, ASD, classes, the difference between primary and post-primary and where the investment is going. We have 4,000 schools. Currently, we have upwards of 1,500 special classes. Some schools are providing up to four classes. Others are providing one class. If we do a quick mathematical summary of that, less than 25% of schools have special classes. It is an enormous challenge to try to get that right. As the Chairman pointed out, we are investing a great deal of resources - one out of every five euro - in special education but we still have a long way to go. Parents today are having difficulties accessing special classes in preschool and primary school and at post-primary level. That is a major challenge that we want to meet head-on.

The Department of Health has a budget of €17 billion and the Department I preside over has a budget of nearly €11 billion. I see enormous potential for much greater collaboration between the two Departments.

Mention was made of behavioural issues. The school inclusion pilot will look at speech and language therapy, occupational therapy, the potential for physiotherapy, even though it is not in the pilot, but also to have a behavioural therapist in the school. We are trying to get from where we are now to a place where there is much more joined-up thinking and integration at an interdepartmental level and between State agencies.

Senator Ruane's contribution on empowering parents was very interesting. She referenced Tallaght, although she did not want to highlight any school in particular. I have fond memories of Tallaght, having done my teaching practice in St. Mark's school, in Springfield. The present-day classrooms are in a different country to the classroom I was in back in 1993 . I went in as a student teacher, stuck to the subject area and got on with it. It was a different scenario to the classrooms I go into in either primary or secondary schools. There is much more complexity. If something is needed in terms of empowering parents in their decision-making as to what is best for their sons or daughters, we will have to be open to that.

The Senator referenced medical situations. Perhaps there could be a reduced timetable for a particular day. We have to be open to all the new ways of thinking in terms of how we deal with complex issues. I refer to the notion of having some sort of support for parents to help them make the decision.

I am reminded of when I was a youth worker in Letterkenny. When parents would approach me informally about something that was happening in primary school, they were looking for my advice and advocacy. It may not have been right all the time but they were reaching out and had a level of trust. That goes back to all the different informal places, whether it is community groups, youth groups or whatever. The Senator may have hit on something that I have experienced in terms of helping parents make that decision. I would like to explore that further.

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