Ms Bernie McNally:

We are doing our very best to deliver the best possible outcomes for children. There is evidence of progress. The Deputy is absolutely right to raise the issue of profit.

I have heard one of the unions talk about this matter in recent days. There is a difference between profit and profiteering. This country would not be where it is were it not for companies running businesses and making reasonable profits. There is a difference between offering a good service to children and families and making a reasonable profit - which we can all live with - and the horrendous situation whereby some services are making massive profits at the expense of children, parents and staff. We have to look at that further.

Let us look at where we are, the money that has gone into creating our early learning and care and school-age childcare infrastructure and the question of whether there is no public service delivery. We created access in the first instance when we received a great deal of money from Europe a number of years ago and a decision was made to give that, in the main, to not-for-profit providers predominantly. Some of the money also went to private operators. We are now in a situation whereby it is a private model, be it that a quarter of the services are offered not-for-profit operations. Clearly, the Government can look at future policy in that area. In the context of the current policy, we are actively looking at how we can work with providers to enable them to make reasonable profits but also to control affordability, quality, etc. The Minister will be making an announcement on the appointment of a chairperson to head up this new funding model in the next few weeks.

What Deputy Funchion states about the workforce is absolutely true. It is really important that we value our workforce in order for children to get high-quality services. We are doing a great deal in that regard. In the context of First 5, our commitment for the next ten years is about professionalising and valuing the workforce. The Minister has called on the profession to deliver and to get a sectoral employment order because that will mobilise the machinery of the State - the Workplace Relations Commission, the Labour Court, our Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform - to address the question of what staff are earning. Is it right that the average wage in sectors €12 per hour and that a manager with 20 years' experience is on €15 an hour? Is it right that, as the Deputy stated, over 40% of staff are on part-time contracts and over 40% are on seasonal contracts? We know that we have to address that. There is a group to develop a workforce development plan that I am chairing which has just had its second meeting. We are making progress. The 117% increase in investment over the past four years has helped but we have a lot more to do. I call on all the managers and owners of those 4,500 services to act. I trust that they want to work in partnership with us and do whatever they can for their staff. There has been investment and we have increased the ECCE capitation has increased by 7% and we trust that service providers are doing as much as possible to pass as much of that as they can on to staff. This is a priority for the Minister and we will pass on this feedback.

On the specific matters to which the Deputy referred, we know that the majority of the AIM funding is being spent on the supports that we want to be given to children. Extra money is being provided for inclusion co-ordinators. Do we know that this money or the higher capitation we provide in respect of ECCE are always passed on to staff? There is a question mark over that. I fully agree with the Deputy in the context of the question she asked.