Ms Bernie McNally:

From a departmental perspective there are a couple of points to which I should respond. Deputy Sherlock said at the outset that he empathised with parents. We very much feel that. We have a young workforce in the Department who use these facilities. I promise the Deputy that we absolutely understand the horrible emotion parents are feeling and the conflict also about which he spoke.

The Deputy said he does not have an increased level of confidence in the situation as a result of the discussions today but I ask him to consider that we do not rely only on what Tusla is telling us through those 2,500 inspections a year, etc. We have many other sources of information. In the media in recent days, a number of academics, who are not living in ivory towers but working in universities and on the ground, have said they believe this case is an exception. We fund staff in 30 county childcare committees, CCCs, across the country. We provide funding of €13 million between CCCs and national voluntary childcare organisations. They have a good insight into what is happening on the ground. They have no reason to give us misinformation. They are telling us they truly believe this is an exception but the Deputy is right. Can we absolutely say this is not happening anywhere else? No, but can any regulatory regime across and world say it is so effective it can guarantee this will not happen? Unfortunately, even in the strongest regulatory regimes, there is an-----